Jude Barber

I remember sitting having a you know, when we were literally conceiving this project thinking, I have never seen a woman with gray or white hair on a platform talking about architecture, and I have seen hundreds and hundreds. I was very studious, you know, went to all the lectures. I’d not seen or read or heard or, you know, you know, apart from Zaha Hadid, of course, incredible architect, but, you know, she she was having to kinda carry the can for everyone. And actually, we thought, no, let’s let’s let’s let’s talk to these women, and so do it in a way and it’s a very simple concept, voice to experience. It’s bringing together older voices with younger voices, to talk about their work.

Fay Young

Welcome to this third series of If Glasgow’s Walls Could Talk. I’m Fay Young, and I’m very pleased to be hosting, today’s episode, which raises an important and and perhaps provocative question. If Glasgow’s walls could talk, how often would they tell the stories of the talented women architects who helped to make and shape our built environment? And it’s a great question to be asking on International Women’s Day, because this podcast recording just happens to be falling on the annual date when we celebrate the achievements of women worldwide, often telling their stories for the first time. And this year’s campaign theme is hashtag #inspireinclusion , and it seems a perfect fit for today’s guests.

Two successful women architects with a mission to reveal and celebrate the contributions women make to our built environment. So a very warm welcome to you, Jude Barber and Nicola McLachlan from Collective Architecture, an award winning practice with studios in Glasgow, Edinburgh, and Dundee. And what seems to me a a a very distinctive way of doing business, built on ethical principles. So welcome. And, you’re here to talk about voices of experience, a truly inspiring project to investigate and celebrate the untold stories of legendary women.

But perhaps we could start with you telling us a little bit about yourselves and what brought you into architecture. Jude, do you want to to go ahead?

Jude Barber

To start. Yeah. Thank you, Faye, and thanks for that lovely introduction. Yeah, we’re really delighted to be here today. And, yeah, getting into architecture, it’s interesting that you asked that because in voice of experience, this is one of the questions that we ask all our participants, actually.

So it’s really interesting to be getting this, sort of put back to us. I suppose for from my point of view just to start, I mean, I, I just loved making things. I just really was always drawing and making, and so as a younger person, it felt natural that that would be something that I might want to continue to do in terms of a career. And I was very fortunate that my parents and, my family and and my teachers were all very kind of open to thinking about what that might look like and feel like. But I was also very mindful about, you know, having a a vacation, getting sort of a a job at the end of whatever I was gonna do and train to be.

So architecture kind of felt like a really positive path. So I was although I didn’t really know any architects, it was something that kind of came through discussion with with those people that were supporting me in that way. And Nic?

Nicola McLachlan

For me, I suppose it was it was a little different. I hadn’t really ever considered, I suppose, what my career would be or even thought about it in the past. I think I’ve just been given a lot of really exciting opportunities, from from being in high school right up to even just now. So I I I think, for me, it was just taking opportunities when they came and, yeah, making connections, I think.

I started off doing my work experience at school in the building control offices and was given an opportunity to go and visit an architect’s practice in Dunoon and, I hadn’t really planned that. And then my art teacher also recommended me to go up to Chris Stewart Architects, which is now Collective to Architecture. And this was back in 2006 for a day trip. And one thing led to another, and I was offered a job as an architectural technician, straight out of school. So my pathway wasn’t really planned, but it was just some really fortunate opportunities into architecture and then sort of the rest is history, I think.

Fay Young

Yeah. Isn’t it interesting how chance can open up opportunities?

Nicola McLachlan

Yeah.

Fay Young

And, yeah, I suppose career paths at school are often, well, not as positive as yours sounds to have been. So that was that was a lucky break, I guess. But it also required you to be open to, you know, what was what was, being offered, I guess.

Nicola McLachlan

Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah.

Jude Barber

And it also shows how education is so important because you also did the part time course, which, again, wouldn’t have been, something that had happened, you know, several decades ago. This is something that that that now people can do and and peer, practice with with learning. So yeah. Yeah. I was just very, very fortunate to be given that opportunity.

Fay Young

And so that for for you both, leading on to, where you are now in Collective Architecture, Was that a a reasonably steady progress? Or

Jude Barber

Well, I mean, for me, I’d come from, other architectural practices, before coming to what was Chris Stewart Architects established by Chris Stewart in 1997. So I joined the practice kind of about 20 years ago. And it always had a, you know, a kind of value system, you know, built in around kind of listening to communities, participation, you know, a kind of strong sustainability, you know, environmental sort of strand. I don’t think Chris is very committed to with others. But over the time as well, we’ve we’ve moved into a full sort of employee ownership model.

So every single person here, 50 of us, owns and has agency over the business and what happens there. So, you know, the core kind of themes around, you know, that we like to work to are sort of social responsibility, design, and innovation. You know, you always want to be doing interesting things, and kind of fairness and equity so that everybody everyone that contributes to the business kind of shapes it and drives it. And, that’s that’s a really founding kind of principle, isn’t it?

Fay Young

Yeah. The website shows lovely smiling faces, so it looks like a good happy place. Nicola, you joined more recently. Is that right? 8 years?

Nicola McLachlan

I suppose I joined again, I suppose, permanently, about 8 years ago, but I originally joined back in 2,006. Oh. So just before actually it became Collective Architecture.

And so I was lucky to be part of that process back then. So I think we became Collective Architecture and employee owned in 2007. But since then, I mean, the practice has really supported my education and my career, and I’ve always sort of been in touch with the practice since then. And then, yeah, joined in back in 2015, I think it was, just before we opened up our Edinburgh studio. Ah,

Jude Barber: I think it’s interesting because we were both we’re both there’s sort of 20 years almost between us, but we’re both directors now. We both got made directors very young in our career as well. So I think that’s kind of interesting. Yes. Her kind of practice model, what it what it does for in and around women and their careers.

Fay Young

Yes. Yes. So that is, inspiring for thought that that it’s possible to to make progress in that kind of way, and with support as well. So, you know, you’re successful and and you’re part of a practice that encourages women to be successful, obviously, women and men, But when did you become aware that that’s perhaps not the the usual experience?

Nicola McLachlan

It’s an it’s interesting for me to think about that actually because my experience in practice was starting, like I said, 2006 at Collective Architecture or Chris Stewart and then Collective Architecture. And and by that point, Chris Stewart Architects Collective Architecture was actually already had a good gender balance by that time. So my initial experience in, practice, I I didn’t it it wasn’t obvious that, you know, there was a gap because it was quite fair. And the same in education, you know, the students that are coming in are it’s about a 50:50 split with men and women. But it wasn’t really until the end of my education and until, in fact, voices of experience, to be quite honest, that I started to reflect on experienced women in practice, the gaps there, and also just what my education looked like and reflecting on how many books I had that were all based on male architects, architects, and and all and all about them.

And and I think, it really wasn’t until Voice’s of experience really highlighted that there is a gap. And and, I mean, Jude, you’ve said some absolute cracking things that I’ll just never forget about, you know, why voices started and what encouraged you to

Fay Young

Yeah. To you

Jude Barber: and Suzanne. I mean, I think, you know, you do this long enough, and you see it all, and you hear it all. And I think there comes a point where, you know, I think for myself and Suzanne Ewing, who is one of the, you know, key co-founder with with with Nicola and myself, myself and Suzanne met, for a coffee actually because as a practice, we got involved in talking around gender imbalance in the profession. Because as Nicola says, although we both were fortunate to be in practices where there are, you know, men and women working cooperatively together, when we sort of popped our head above the path and looked around and, you know, we would sit in meetings and you sit in forums and you would, you know, see that kind of imbalance playing out more broadly. You know, you you start to ask questions. You know, why is this so stagnant?

Why is this so static? Why is this not changing? And I think there’s a startling statistic for us, back in oh, god. It must have been about 2007. Building design did a campaign, 50:50 campaign for gender balance in architecture.

And at that time, only 13% of architects, qualified architects were women. However, you know, as Nicola said, 50:50 were going through the education system. So the the question is, where do the women? You know, why are we not staying in the profession? And that’s just obviously a systemic issue, as to why women would be dropping out.

So I think one of the things that myself and and Suzanne did, we met for for a coffee and just talked about this. You know, why is this happening? And she was also saying in academia, it’s no better. Yeah. It’s a sort of a broad ranging issue.

And so we did that, and then later on when, there was the festival of architecture in 2016, I suppose we met again to talk about why the program had so few women in it. I mean, like, a dearth of women in it. The few token people mentioned. And what we were gonna do about it and and and and positively at the same time, Andy Summers and others were developing the idea of an architecture fringe, which would be sitting in parallel, to the side of the main festival and allowing other voices and other projects, to come through, that year. And so we together, Sam, Nicola, herself, we all set out and we concocted a project called, voices of experience.

We said, let’s do something really positive about this. Let’s not moan about what’s not happening. Let’s try and find out what is happening, and let’s make those connections. And Suzanne had had worked in an arts council, had heard about new people like Christine Borland, Margaret Richards, you know, names I didn’t know. And, one one of the things that Nicola is highlighting was I remember sitting having a you know, when we were literally conceiving this project thinking, I have never seen a woman with gray or white hair on a platform talking about architecture, and I have seen hundreds and hundreds

I was very studious when I went to all the lectures. I’d not seen or read or heard or, you know, you know, I don’t care about Zaha Hadid, of course, incredible architect. Yeah. But, you know, she she was having to kinda carry the can for everyone, so I think and actually, we thought, no, let’s let’s let’s let’s talk to these women.

And so do it in a way and it’s a very simple concept, voice to experience. It’s bringing together older voices with younger voices, to talk about their work.

Fay Young

Yeah. Yeah. It it’s such a wonderful simple. In fact, it makes me think it should be used in every industry and every profession.

Jude Barber

Yeah. Well, we’d love to roll out so we can maybe talk about Yeah. We do. Yeah. And and I think in a way for us as well, another thing that’s important as well about, voice experience is, we are focusing, obviously, on women, but we’re really talking about women’s work.

Ah. We’re talking about the contributions and their work as architects, as designers, as landscape architects, engineers, as clients, as commissioners. And to really understand that, that landscape of how we actually make places. So, you know, as Nicola was saying, you know, the hero books, the starkitext, the the singular genius, Much of the project kind of debunks that myth, and it is a myth. You know, it is an absolute myth that a singular person is There’s no doubt that our creative, inspiring people out there of all genders and all.

But, you know, this notion that we do it on our own, with somebody, you know, a bolt of lightning vision is is is not a truth. Yeah. And I think that there’s often contributions made across, you know, ranges, spectrums about, and I suppose what we are trying to do with the project is just to uncover uncover those things and tell those stories.

Fay Young

Yeah. Yes. What what about you, Nicola, in terms of just making those connections and and contacts? What was it for you that would seem to be important in in opening up conversations with with experienced women who weren’t getting the chance to to get a word in edgeways.

Nicola McLachlan

I I think when Suzanne just started talking about it, I just couldn’t believe. I hadn’t thought about it before. Like, it was our real moment. I was like, Jesus. Where are these women?

You know? And and I just I just wanted to join Jude and Suzanne on that investigation. And so I I immediately was like, absolutely. Let me get involved. I’ll be, you know, your younger participant.

And yeah. I mean and then and through this, I was paired up with Margaret Richards. And, I mean, I’ve said to you before, Fay, but it has completely changed my life. It’s the the project is absolutely fantastic and and and incredible and has sort of given us so much more than just trying to find out about these women’s career. It’s opened up friendships.

It’s opened up just so many stories and so many really, really amazing experiences for us and others. And it’s growing. It’s it’s continuing to grow. It’s amazing. Yeah.

Fay Young

Yeah. Well, we’ll talk we’ll talk a wee bit more about how that actually works, because I think that’s really interesting too. But were you one of the first, pairs, you and Margaret and Yeah. And yes. So had how was that how did it develop then? What was it like on your first meeting?

Nicola McLachlan

Well, I’ll never forget meeting Margaret for the first time. She came to our Edinburgh studio to meet Jude and I, and she walked in and, woah, was she serious, wasn’t she?

Fay Young

Yeah. Oh,

Nicola McLachlan

formidable. Yeah. Really. She was

Fay Young

Really? Really?

Nicola McLachlan

Yeah. She was oh, it’s incredible. I’ll honestly never forget it. She walked in, she sat down. She said, I want to be clear here.

I’m not anti men. And we were like, well, no. We are not anti men either. We could not do what we do without men. Absolutely.

And so it just really set the tone. And she was just just an incredible woman. Absolutely incredible woman. And has done so much in her career to support men and women. Yeah.

But it took it took quite a lot of sort of conversations with Margaret to start

Fay Youn

Yeah.

Nicola McLachlan

Convince her about our your your intentions. Yeah. Absolutely. And that we were genuinely interested in her career and what she’d done, and that that was an inspiring thing for us to to hear. So Yeah.

Yeah. I think, I’d never forget that. Do you remember she walked in?

Jude Barber

Yeah. And you’re friends now

Nicola McLachlan

Yes. Exactly. Margaret and I. Margaret sadly has passed away now. But, yeah, there was a 60 year age gap for us, and we just became Gosh, really, like, best pals. Like, we went down to , shared shared a static caravan. Honestly. Had sleepovers, lunches, boozy lunches. Went to events.

Yeah. We were became absolutely best pals, and it’s just Oh, that’s It’s been incredible. But that’s not just me, you know, due to you continue to be really good friends as well. Yeah.

Jude Barber

And I think that cross generational connection is really important because, you know, for a lot of these women, you know, if you’re thinking in their seventies, eighties, nineties, some of them have had these incredible, exciting careers. And then, you know, obviously, once that comes to an an end, the landscape of how we talk about architecture, the opportunities to do that kind of disappear. And, they’re not invited to be part and of things. And and I suppose for us, you know, it was really important. We through those friendships, we’re actually sharing knowledge and information.

You know, so the archive is kinda building up books, references, other, you know, routes to other women’s careers and making those those connections. So, yeah, no, it’s been a really, really inspiring journey. And I think it started as a pilot. You know, it started as a an experiment of 4 4 pairings, Nicole, obviously, being one of those with Margaret, with Heather Claridge, planner, teamed up with Kirsteen Borland that I mentioned earlier, talking about, how energy came to to Scotland, you know, because, Kirsteen was involved in oil coming to Scotland up in the Moray, Moray Coast, and Kirsteen was looking at green energy sorry. Heather was looking at green energy, in Glasgow. So, you know, it starts to become, you know, a bit of social history, really, about our nation. So there’s there’s there’s lots lots to to learn from. Yeah.

Fay Young

And that knowing just knowing what what the women have actually done, that that, as you were saying, becomes a lost value, lost resource.

Jude Barber

Yeah. Because we know because we know archives, you know, the the the sort of you know, the canon of of architecture design, hasn’t included women. And we know that that there are people who are written out or contributions are not recorded. And I think this project in a small, kind of modest way is trying to sort of recalibrate that. And importantly, I think Suzanne, as mentioned earlier, you know, she’s, she is an architect, trained architect, but is also professor, at ESALA in Edinburgh and we’re very fortunate that through her work and and her rigor, the project’s also connected to, you know, to formal archiving.

So now all the conversations are transcribed, cross referenced, and, archived at on the Data Share site. So it’s actually now been used as a as a research tool.

Fay Young

Fantastic. And so they’re easily accessible for anybody who’s interested in in In listening. Yeah. So, I’m I’m just intrigued to know more about Margaret. What was her story then? What what had she been doing?

Nicola McLachlan

Well, an important part of Voice of Experience for us as well, like you’ve mentioned, is very much about the work of women and highlighting the work and investigating the work. And so, the reason Margaret and I were paired together initially, was because both of us had worked down in Leith Fort in different capacities. So, Leith Fort 4 Margaret had, in the sixties, entered a competition to redevelop, an area down the Leith, which then when I started working down the Leith, that project she she her entry didn’t actually win in the end. But, the the the area which the competition was based had just been demolished. And and I was working on the project, the new project that was getting built.

So Margaret and I, that was where the anchor was between our our work. We had this sort of common relationship with Leith. And Yeah. And Margaret had also worked in a lot of housing down in London. In fact, I think, she was coined the drainage queen of Pimlico at one point.

She’s been working on all of this strategy for these large housing projects, which was very proud of. And it’s really fun.

Fay Young

I bet.

Nicola McLachlan

The drainage queen of Pimlico. And so we met down a lease on sites, wear hard hats on, and we walked around the new development down there just discussing housing and drainage and all sorts of different things. It was just incredible. And I think one thing as well, I think, you know, architecture is a career that is so wide ranging. I don’t think just from from my experience anyway with Margaret and and others, it doesn’t really leave you.

And I think that was what was incredible. You’re into your nineties and you’re still got so many opinions about how things should be, you know, housing, what rights you should have, you know, what fundamental rights we should have in homes and, access to green space and, you know, just I think that the big part of, my experience with voices is just, I think, that intergenerational elderly sort of views on society. I think, it sort of helps to sort of open people’s eyes to the value of older people, here, older women, and their contributions through their life and and still into their older years, I think.

Fay Young

Yes. And it’s it’s something that we that our society has become much more, insulated from, and what’s the word? I mean, we we we’ve we’ve parcelled up into to different categories and in more traditional, societies older people are very much part of the just the natural, rhythm of of and and younger people wouldn’t would naturally turn to their elders Yeah. For advice and well, you know, oh look it’s flooding. What did you do the last time it flooded?

Jude Barber

A 100%. And you know, we’re we we always laugh because, our our good friend, Anne Duff, who’s one of our participants, she was involved in the, the new housing in in Cumbernaulds, part of Newtown developments. She always you know, she would come to our events, and she you could just see her get because she was like, we were talking about this back in 1963. You know? And and it’s just really valuable to like, you you’re saying, Fay, to learn from the past.

And, you know, she you know, there are very few new ideas. You know, we actually it’s really important we continue to learn and build and understand really really willing to impart this knowledge and share it, when when invited and asked. And it’s just been really valuable for us thinking about, you know, where we sit in our careers as well. You know, I’m sort of mid career, and to to to to to learn from those that have have gone before. I think it’s also important that we were talking there about different voices and different different people that have been involved.

I mean, the big thing for us to see about the project is that, it’s always recorded on-site. So it’s not an interview. So although we are the hosts, we call ourselves the hosts, we sit in the background. We we ask a very simple set of questions. We have, like, 5 questions.

They’re always the same questions. So there’s a formula to how we run the voice of experience project. You know, 1, it has to be based on-site. 2, the participants have to have a work based connection. You know, there has to be something in common.

They obviously have to be at some different stages in their career. And 3, that it’s not an interview, you know, that it is actually, a conversation. And, what we found is that formula actually works quite well. We haven’t really we’ve adapted it slightly over the over the years, but, ultimately, it’s it’s always the same format, and it seems to be working. And then we have rules again about how we transcribe the conversations.

We don’t leave things out. It’s really important to have those pauses, the laughter, the umms and the ahs. You know? So it’s it’s very much a a sort of true record of of what’s been what’s been said. So all of those things kind of add up to the conversation, and we’re hoping to develop what we’re working on at the moment as a toolkit.

Because as you mentioned before, Fay, this is something that could be rolled out. I was talking to someone recently. It’s a lawyer, and she’s, well, we’ve been having these conversations at law society about how do we capture the voices. And we’re like, well, 100% happy for this toolkit to be used. And the other thing that’s really important is that there’s time and care taken around these things.

If you imagine you’re in your eighties, you’re you’re trying to recall things from maybe 50 years ago. Yes. Yes. And the names and the people and you’re you’re sort of always having to sort of dive back into your into your past as well. So it’s really important that we’re taking time and, it could take months to to set up a conversation

Fay Young

Really?

Jude Barber

Yeah. To make sure that Yeah that ultimately everyone feels comfortable and connected and willing to participate. And and share.

Fay Young

And and it sounds like with all that preparation, that there’s this, mutual respect and and feeling of equals.

Jude Barber

Absolutely. And in the conversation, you can just see see the kind of sparks between the women, you know, the older younger women. And we have we have a kind of final question where, you know, if you got any one bit of advice you wanna pass on. And those are always the best moments. There’s a bit of laughter. Yeah. So, they’re always quite good moments.

Nicola McLachlan: Stay in the swim?

Jude Barber: Stay in the swim. That was very we use it now in business, actually.

Fay Young

Yes. Yeah. Yeah. What what are the 5 questions that you ask?

Jude Barber

Oh, well, we ask obviously, the first like you asked ourselves, you know, what was your route into architecture or landscape architecture? We also ask, you know, what could you describe a little bit, like your your journey, like your learning, you know, education and journey? Tell us a little bit about that. Is there any kind of thing you know, what particularly interest you in in in studying? And then what was your first job?

Which, again, is an easy one and it’s kind of interesting. Everyone thinks what was actually my first job. An example of a project that you feel particularly, pleased about Mhmm. And why? And who supported and advised you maybe along your ways?

Is there anyone that kinda sticks out that you would like to talk about? And then, yeah, any advice you give to young people coming in to do what you’re doing. Yeah. So those are the kind that’s just a brief overview.

Fay Young

Yeah. Great.

Nicola McLachlan

Absolutely. And we have been expanding just from sort of architecture, conservation architecture, landscape architecture. We have been expanding that recently as well. So we’ve been having conversations with, well, I suppose the reason that we’re expanding it is because, I mean, even through these conversations, it’s highlighted that, you know, architecture is such a broad discipline. And for for for buildings to be built, for example, you know, there’s so many other disciplines that are involved in that.

And a key role in that is sort of studio managers or people behind the scenes who are sort of making sure all of this happens. So we’ve recently had a conversation, with that in mind, with Hilary Nicoll up in Dundee that was, the sort of studio administrator finance manager at Nicoll Russell Studios up in Dundee. So it’s really important to kinda get her story and perspective on being in practice in that way. So, yeah, the you know, we’re not, when we talk about important contributions, we’re not necessarily talking about, you know, whose names in the dictionary of Scottish Architecture. And that that that takes a little while sometimes with our participants to, to to talk about because many of us, you know, been we’re kinda having to unlearn that kind of idea that you have to just you know, if you weren’t the sort of top Yeah. You know, superstar pushed forward, from the practice, then your contributions don’t matter.

So I think that’s we’re kind of having to unravel a lot of that through the project as well.

Fay Young

And knowing how things if things work well, I suppose the people who clean the buildings, the people who, sit in reception, the, all the well, actually, even the people who deliver, you know, essential equipment and set it up. These are things that the mistakes that are made in design and construction really only begin to properly emerge once you start to use a building and live in it or work in it.

Jude Barber

A 100%, you know, it’s really you know, if he takes any of those parts away, you know, it doesn’t work. So it’s about valuing all the that can spectrum of how things are actually made and done and shaped. And and some of the things, you know, we’re talking you know, if we we’d like to talk to another conversation we’d like to have is maybe around with a commissioner, you know, people who actually commission architects and have, you know, someone who’s done that for, you know, decades because of people in mind, and those who are just beginning to do that as well. So, you know, it’s it’s it’s for us, it’s really trying to to to talk about that whole picture of shaping the built built environment and the people that have been involved in that.

Fay Young

And you were saying, that that you’re getting a growing number of of people, taking part and wanting to take part. Is is that right?

Nicola McLachlan

Yeah. I think, well, it’s a voluntary project. But given that, you know, we’re chatting to to people in their nineties, there is a sense of urgency to capture these stories. Yes. So, you know, even when we were chatting before about Margaret, you know, she would be like, oh, such and such would be fantastic, but she’s dead. You know? And and it’s a real you know, so there is a real urgency about capturing these stories. And and because it is a voluntary project, a lot of research goes into finding these people, pairing these people. And like Jake was saying, the sort of care and sensibility around pairings, that could be months pre meetings and reassuring people that this isn’t something that, they’ll feel uncomfortable with.

Because we have had people in the past who’d have just said, actually, you know, it’s not it’s not for me. I I don’t want to, you know, talk about myself. And you find that actually in a in a lot of women, that they just don’t think that their story’s valued or important enough to to be shared. So there is an urgency and there is a growing the project is definitely growing. But it is. And we’ve noticed what’s been quite interesting recently is that so we began doing conversations, and then we’ve moved into doing we did a lot of events as well associated with that. So, again, sort of roundtable, coffee morning type situations where we take our time and we have these these conversations together, and these are recorded and transcribed as well. And we’ve been doing that now for about 7 years. And another interesting kind of development of the project has been, kind of commissioning new work around this, sort of writing articles, publications, part partnerships with others.

So, for example, we’ve worked with Panel, who are amazing curatorial team, to do, we’ve done a publication called Remnants, you know, how you build a city. Yes. That looks fantastic. How you repair a city, and that that sort of focuses on the conversations, but it also, has some new work. For example, Rona Warwick Patterson went into the art art looked at some of our conversations and looked at the one that between, Fiona Sinclair and Maddy Lafferty, and she wrote, it’s not a poem, it’s like a piece.

She’s written a piece about that called Outwith. And she takes the voices and she puts her puts this together into a written piece. And then we’ve also had exhibitions, for example, like the mementos project which where we asked our participants to select one memento from their working life and then they write a small piece about that and that’s they’re presented in archive boxes. So we did that the Lighthouse centre for Design and architecture back in, I think, that was 2019 or something like that. So we’ve we’ve Architecture. For the architecture Fringe.

So we we, you know, we we’re kind of now moving into, ex the sort of opening up the archive and and exploring that in different through different media and with different partners and people. So that’s been that’s been a really kind of interesting outcome. And last year, we did an event, the Edinburgh Art, you know, festival with a conversation over there. So that’s really growing as well, which is which is super exciting. Yeah.

And we got pieces in the the V and A. Voices of Experience are now displayed in the V and A, and they’re Scottish Scottish gallery. Scottish gallery. And there was also an event last year as well in the V and A?

Fay Young

Was it?

Jude Barber

For International Women’s Day last last year. We had Diane Waters, the historian Diane Watters, and the, past president of RIAS, Christina Gaiger, speaking on a platform just about their their work, the V&A. So we’re really you know, this is what we’re starting to see is what we’ve been doing as a kind of sort of ad hoc. You know you know, we both work full time. So we’re doing you know, and and Suzanne as well.

We you know, what we’re finding is this work that we’ve been sort of gently building up and building up is now starting to form its own resource that the others, you know, really quite established organisations are starting to come to us and say, actually, we would like to maybe use parts of that because it allows us to tell a different story maybe about our our work too. Yeah.

Nicola McLachlan

And on Sunday, we’re actually hosting a conversation with Jim Johnson and Scott McAuley. And it’s been really lovely, actually, the conversations behind the scenes so far as, Scott’s really highlighted how influential Jim’s work, has been in his life. And they’re both real pioneers in sustainability and climate action. So really exciting. And that will be our 1st sort of male pairing, I suppose.

Fay Young

Fantastic. So where where is that taking place? Sorry.

Nicola McLachlan

Well, that is taking place in Creetown, and Jim’s where Jim lives. So Yeah. Myself and Suzanne and Scott are driving down there on Sunday. So it’s 3 hours of pre conversations and then a couple of hours down there with Jim and his wife. And we’ll have tea and cake and soup, and they’ve offered to have us for lunch.

So, yeah, it’s really exciting.

Fay Young

It’s great because, I mean, this this is social history,

Nicola McLachlan

It’s taken years actually to set that one up.

Fay Young

Has it? Yeah.

Nicola McLachlan

It has. These things take I mean, if you have a pandemic in the middle of it, it makes sense. But, yeah, definitely. These things do take time. And, so and as Jude was saying, because all all of the conversations are archived as well, we’re very fortunate to get funding, a lot of funding actually via Edinburgh University, and Suzanne’s sort of research there.

Jude Barber

Uh-huh.

Nicola McLachlan

Because that does take time and professionals to transcribe things and then put them onto the data share. There was a lot of work that goes into actually making these research to researchers making the this a research tool or resource. So, yeah, it’s just getting the right conversations and then doing it properly, which it started off, you know, just like Jade was saying. We we we didn’t really plan for it to go as far as it has, which is exciting.

Fay Young

It is very exciting, and it it is you’re obviously tapping into a need to, learn from from experience, across a whole range of activities.

Jude Barber

Absolutely. And it’s, you know, it’s a kind of global, matter. I mean, we’ve been very fortunate as well that the project and and, you know, some of us have been invited over to places like Melbourne to talk, you know, through, with sort of, sister organizations like Parlour.org.au. If you haven’t heard about them, they’re absolutely amazing. They’re doing incredible work over, in that part of the world, around sort of women and and gender equity.

And, they’ve invited us to take part. Suzanne was just there last year. I was there maybe, like, 4 or 5 years ago. We’ve also taken part in, various events down in London and, in Spain. So there’s there’s definitely something there around to kind of be part of a a sort of growing movement of of of people doing work in this area.

And Suzanne’s also involved in an amazing research project as well called Women Make Cities. So I think that ties very much into what, partly what we’re trying to do, but obviously that’s a broader project which is really growing attraction. So that’s that’s exciting as well.

Fay Young

Yeah. That does sound fascinating. And is is that, across the whole all the different aspects of life in a city?

Jude Barber

Yes. It looks back to sort of history and, you know, there’s one, example that that Suzanne was, talking about with one of her researchers. It’s all about just street sellers in Edinburgh and how women had been very visible in the street selling, and this kind of informal trading that happened at one time. And then, of course, they got through to to laws what moved on. And then that visibility of women in the space sort of changed the the in in the character of the city.

So it’s just important that we kind of understand that kind of dynamic between, the pop you know, the politics space and women’s role within that. And, particularly in International Women’s Day, we’re hearing a lot about this, at the moment. And, you know, we’ve got organizations such as, like, Making Space for Girls talking about how do we encourage, you know, open spaces to to allow young women to participate and be in those spaces because we know that they currently don’t feel comfortable in those spaces. So there’s there are a lot of really positive initiatives around this. And I think one thing we found with voice of experience is that we we have a very particular way of exploring women’s role in the built environment, and we’re we think having that clarity of method is is really key.

Mhmm. And then seeing it as part of a bigger landscape of of of people doing incredible work to sort of highlight, women’s experience and spaces is is something that we’re very mindful of.

Fay Young

And I think when we had an earlier chat, you were talking about well, and you’ve already mentioned pairing men as well, but but other, what we call minorities, there’s a scope for for encouraging those opening up those conversations and learning.

Jude Barber

Yeah. Exactly. And as Nicola said, you know, it’s called Voices of Experience. So it’s about telling those kind of untold stories. And we know, and, you know, when we think about, black experience, people of colour, when we think about, people of different, you know, sexualities, neurodiversity, when we think about, you know, pedialism, all of these sort of your whiteness class.

It’s it’s it for us, I think we feel like there’s, you know, so much more that we could do with the project and that we could be building on, in and around, telling those different stories, have heeding those different voices, and also that kind of intergenerational, perspective on on that. So that’s definitely where we would love the project to continue to to, you know, to grow and move forward in that way. But

Fay Young

Yeah. Yes. I’m feeling quite up listening to all that you’re doing, but I I you quite often, I start the day feeling down. You know, you just have to you just have to look at the today’s news. But through your work, it’s it’s one of the the questions, that has evolved as one of our set questions on If Glasgow’s Walls Could Talk.

Where are the reasons for hope? And are you you you do seem to be uncovering lots of reasons for hope, but but I feel very strongly that we we get so much doom, and it’s important to know what’s going wrong and what is wrong. But we also need to pair that with a, well, what do we do about it? And, because otherwise we give up.

Jude Barber

I mean, a 100%. I mean, that that initial conversation that I had with Suzanne about, you know, this is ridiculous that, You know, we’re losing women. They’re you know, the landscape’s terrible. You know, guys say stuff should so patronizing all the time. You sit and meet and see the only women in the room.

It’s so boring, so tedious. Said, well, actually, you know, you could spend all your energy, like, getting completely eaten up by that, or we could actually do something that fills the gap, fills that void, and we get massive enjoyment from doing it. Mhmm. And, you know, we know a lot of really positive things come from small seeds, and you know, individuals just doing something hopeful. And so, you know, we talk about society, but, you know, we’re part of that.

So society is built by loads of individuals doing things. So I think, in a small way, you know, this project is is trying to fill that gap or challenge the status quo, but to do it in a way that actually gives us enormous joy. And we, you know, we, like Nicola said, it it changed our life. It feel it has changed my life too. And I think, it’s about shifting the balance and relearning how to do things.

And I think I would say to anybody listening or, you know, people who are thinking appreciated by anything, they’re doing a thing. Well, what can you actually do in yourself that would just make that, you know, just make that we step forward in in what you want to see happen and and and do your best to do it. And I’m I’m I’m aware of my privilege as well, you know, why you’re in the classroom and whatever. But, you know, I just think, well, I’m gonna use you know, I’m gonna make the most of that and and be mindful of that privilege, but let’s try and do something about about all.

Nicola McLachlan

Oh, exactly. And if you just think how many women with wood gray white hair have been on a platform now? Oh, we just lost the one the one thing that started it. You know, that opportunity has come Yeah.

Jude Barber

We’ve had, like, about 10 events now. So you think we’ve all been full of you know Yeah. Women talking, Older women holding the microphone. Yeah. It’s brilliant.

Fay Young

Absolutely. You’ve got good pictures of all these wonderful white haired women.

Jude Barber

Absolutely. Really articulate, passionate Yes. Funny

Fay Young

Yes. And knowledgeable people. Yeah. That when I was when I was last in Paris, walking along the street up in Montmartre, there was a really wonderful mural of an older woman with white, wispy, flyaway hair and lots and lots of lines. She was absolutely beautiful, and the look on her face was a sort of benign amusement as though, you know, passersby, I know what you’re doing.

I I’ve been there before. It was just Oh, absolutely.

Nicola McLachlan

Exactly. Yeah.

Jude Barber

Yeah. Yeah. A 100%. And and we know that, you know, you know, the the war on women’s bodies, how we see ourselves, how we’re we’re supposed to be in public, is is is so deep set in society. And I think, for us, you know, to see, women in her nineties holding a microphone, talking about what she’s doing in these typically, I mean, I was thinking of Kirsty Borland in that gorgeous pink suit that she has, you know, looking so stylish, so composed.

Mhmm. And I think, you know, just to even see that happening live is is is an incredible thing. So I think the fact that we’ve had those opportunities to be in those spaces has been yeah. It’s been

Nicola McLachlan

I remember Margaret called me before our first event. I was like, what are you wearing? And then I called you. I was like, Margaret, she’s asking me what I’m wearing.

Fay Young: Do you remember what you’re wearing?

Nicola McLachlan

Oh, I would’ve just said something black. No doubt. But she was like, well, I’m going to wear a white shirt and some sort of jumper. I don’t ever say that. Perfect.

But it’s just these little these little what is it because it was a a silly thing, but it just brings you in common. You know, we’re all thinking what are we gonna wear to be on stage, and it doesn’t matter what age you are. It just it’s it’s really little simple things like that that have really pulled us all together. It’s it sounds really strange, but it it it really has sort of brought those generations together through Yeah. Experience.

 

Fay Young

That that is a lovely heartwarming thought. We we’ve actually, amazingly enough, come to the the the end nearly nearly. And, this is the question that Niall Murphy always gets great, joy out of asking. The one, that asks you what your favourite Glasgow building is, and what it would say if its walls could talk.

Nicola McLachlan

I was laughing with Jude because I actually just spotted that question right before. And when you to ask an architect that question is it’s pretty loaded. It’s no pressure. It’s quite a difficult thing. What’s your favorite building?

Fay Young

You’ve just explained something to me because Niall always introduces that as a loaded question. And, you know, the journalist in me are thinking, well, it’s not loaded. It’s a straight question. But, yeah, he’s he’s an architect. Of course.

Nicola McLachlan

So Do you know a funny story, actually. I’m just remembering is my interview, for the Mac. Part of the questions for your interview was what’s your favourite building? And I remember sitting there, and we were filling it out before we were all queued up. There was about 10 of us in the room, and I said to the girl next to me, what’s your favorite building?

And she she pointed at her form that said the Gherkin. And I remember thinking, the Gherkin? I don’t even know what that is, but I just put the Gherkin down. And I was in there, and she thought, don’t I don’t I don’t even know what that is, but I just put the Gherkin down And I was in there and she thought, don’t ask me because the the only buildings I really had ever thought about is ones that collection actually had done at the time. And I was like, just that housing project in Paisley.

What am I gonna say? Is that really Glasgow? And I was like freaking out. It’s always a quite a loaded question for me to answer. Right. And I was like, student, I don’t know what I’m gonna say. But I think just even what we started talking about is, like, buildings and the importance of, like, memories and well, actually, the theme of this is, you know, within the walls what we can see.

Fay Young

Yes.

Nicola McLachlan

And I think for me, the the strongest memories of buildings in Glasgow is up at the campus at the the GSA, so in the Bourdon building where I studied just because it’s where it’s formed most of my thinking at the time and made lots of friends. And just I spent so so many hours in the studio there. I think that’s where I feel when that question when I seen that question this morning, I went immediately up to the building. So I don’t know the the reason that’s loaded is is because, you know, aesthetically are we talking about or, you know, how it works inside or what materials has been used. Or it’s a very difficult kind of question.

And and for me, I think it’s just about memories. Yes. So that’s that’s my answer. Sorry. Quite an odd answer.

Fay Young

No. And, Jude, what about you?

Jude Barber

Yeah. I know. Similarly to Nicola. Oh. But I I think if I think about places I’ve been that have really had a massive influence on me, I think that there’s one building that really stands out for me.

It’s not so much the the building, although that’s entirely part of it. It’s just the organisation. So I’m it’s the Glasgow Women’s Library. So, you know, I’ve had, you talk about things changing your life, but, for the show notes, it’s, an old Carnegie building up in Bridgeton, east end of Glasgow, listed building. And, the women’s library, is a fantastic organization of charity.

Full disclosure, I’m currently the chair, and, I’ve been on the board for about 6 years now. But we first, came to learn about this this amazing, building and an organization, collective architect. We we we we, designed their new home, in Bridgeton when they moved from the Mitchell Library. And I think working with the women’s library is just it’s been an absolute, like, revelation for me, particularly as a woman in construction. It just opened my eyes to the just women’s struggles, the opportunities that that that can come from from taking a feminist approach.

And so and the work that Sue and Adele, there and all the founders have you know, the work they’ve done to build this incredible resource. It’s the only accredited museum to women’s history in the UK, and it’s here in the east end of Glasgow, which is fantastic. And the building itself is amazing. You know, Carnegie, that whole concept of learning and democratizing that is key. And then to think that, you know, women’s history is something that we can all go along and find out about in this space is is amazing.

And the way that the organisation does that through events, through programs, through workshops, through just a hugely inclusive kind of program. I think today, on International Women’s Day, I think I can’t think of a Yeah. A better organisation to be talking about. And and so as I build it, you know, what does that building you know, when you say, like, if it’s walls, could talk. I think it’s walls do talk.

I think it already talks. And even the lift tower’s got, you know, right, you know, titles from from incredible, women women’s literature on it. So I think it it it just that building just lives and breathes, and everything goes on it goes on and continues to flourish. So, yeah, that’s definitely the big one for me. Yeah.

Fay Young

Well, I I I totally understand what you’ve both said. You know, buildings are where people spend their lives sometimes, born and die, and and memories are an absolutely essential part of buildings, but also the the Glasgow Women’s Library is a I’ve I’ve been lucky enough to to to go to a couple of events there and meet some of the people there. It is a really inspiring place and a perfect choice for International Women’s Day most definitely. It’s just been a real pleasure talking to you both. This is the first time I’ve hosted on on this really lovely series.

So thank you for making it a really terrific experience and I I just thinking what you’re doing is tremendous. You you’re creating a real treasure chest of of, celebrate celebrating, you know, human achievements. They they happen to be women’s achievements, but it’s it’s about humanity, isn’t it? And, how we build, the world we live in.

Jude Barber:

That is. Yeah. Yeah. Well, thank you so much for inviting us. It’s been a pleasure. Thank you, Faye

Nicola McLachlan

Thank you. Yes. Thank you so much.

Katharine Neil

Glasgow City Heritage Trust is an independent charity and grant funder that promotes the understanding, appreciation, and conservation of Glasgow’s historic built environment. Do you want to know more? Have a look at our website atglasgowheritage.org.uk and follow us on social media at glasgowheritage. This podcast was produced by Inner Ear for Glasgow City Heritage Trust and is sponsored by Tunnock’s

Ume Chauhdry

Thistle is actually a Scottish flower, and it represents Scottish history and culture. It has positive connection and a sign of resilience, strength, and pride. And dandelion is a very resilient flower. It can grow anywhere in the world, and it’s fragile like, women, come from all over the world, and they are asylum seekers and refugee and maybe somebody bright, and they are fragile in this new environment. Thistle represent Scotland and dandelion represent the women they come, in this, country.

Niall Murphy

Hello everyone and welcome to If Glasgow’s Walls Could Talk. I’m Niall Murphy.

Fay Young

And I’m Fay Young. It’s really interesting how buildings can embody emotion. And with this thistles and dandelions interview with Layla and Ume, it was really interesting how they responded to the buildings around them, in the David Livingstone project, the Empower Women project that took them inside the museum. But also, especially as they walked around the city, Layla talked about the comfort she got from looking at at these grand Glasgow buildings. And I I wonder what you feel about that, Neil, that, you know, that a a sort of emotional response to a building.

Niall Murphy

I think that’s very interesting, and I think it’s key. It’s about looking for ways to find your way, you know, find some niche that can potentially become your home. So I think buildings can serve a role in that. I’m I’m kind of I’m very interested in the role that buildings play in memory and association. So I think there is potentially something very interesting there.

Fay Young

Yes. It’s a really interesting conversation. Welcome to you both, Layla and Ume. We have such a lot to talk about about your work, but let’s start perhaps with you telling us a little bit about yourselves and how you come to be here.

Ume Chauhdry

My name is Ume Chaudhry, and I came to Glasgow from Pakistan in 1994 after my marriage. My parent-in-law living here since 1960s . I have Master degree in Persian language and literature. I speak 4 languages, Urdu, Punjabi, English, and Persian. I left behind my family, my ambition, my culture, my study, and my friends to come here.

Here, I end up leaving my in laws, and, my hope was to do my study, learn new things, integrate in society. But all this fade away when most Asian women, when they come here and, in laws show them the kitchen, and that is and they say, that is your new life. Good luck. So they don’t care about isolation, stress, depression, only communication through in-laws, and you have to obey the orders. So after lots of struggle, me and my husband managed to get our own place.

I started to improve my English, and I study at Open University, IT and informational technology. I used to do, voluntary with Amna, the Muslim Resource Center helpline. But every week, I used to, meet my friend, and she was one of the staff in empower women. And, actually, she was, a volunteer coordinator for the Thistle and Dandelion project. She She said, if you are struggling to find job, why you don’t join empower women for change, a heritage museum project while searching for job?

I said I am not interested in past history, heritage, and museum because these things are not too boring for me. I’m a coding person, but she insisted, please come on induction day. If you like, fine. Otherwise, trophies. My friends are very dear to me because I love them, so I always give them respect and value.

I said, okay. If you insist, I will come. So I went to introduce, Sunday in February, and it was a merchant house building. I entered the building, and we gathered, and, everybody was new to each other. So when the project voluntary coordinator give us little bit introduction about merchant house, the building, so I found out the building had been used as a slave merchant business in 18th Century, and it was a tobacco as well.

They were using, for tobacco business and for slavery. Then, immediately, one point come to my mind, how time change. Now Empowered Women for Change has two room occupied to help global and ethic minority group, especially asylum seeker, refugee. And that building and empower women for change touched my heart, and I decided to join the project. Now I will hand it to Layla.

Layla Sadr Hashem

Yeah. I arrived in Glasgow more than 8 years ago, through my husband’s visa student. In my country, I studied master of art in Farsi, language and literature. I used to work, in a magazine as an editor, and a short story writer. Also, I taught at university as a visiting lecturer and a teacher at a secondary school.

When I came here, I realised that, I cannot do anything with my, degree. So I had to start from the beginning.  studied ESOL 3 years, then, I changed my field, and I studied 3 years art and design at Kelvin College, which was very, very good experience.

Fay Young

Both bringing different stories and a lot of, change in your lives. What was it like when you arrived in Glasgow coming from very, very different cultures and backgrounds? How how did the city look and feel to you?

Ume Chauhdry

It felt to me it was very cold. So so I have to wear lots of clothes. And another thing is it it was very peaceful. And when I used to go out, everybody was welcoming and hello, and they were talking about, oh, weather is nice. Oh, weather is too bad or it’s raining all the time.

And people were very friendly, because I was new. Sometime, I asked the way, and they were giving me direction. So usually, I was just staying at home or In the kitchen? Going for yes. In the kitchen.

And and then little bit going for shopping. And I used to go with my husband. He was very good, and he was showing me all the places. And we went to, Loch Lomond first time. I just love it because I always loved the, natural beauty.

And then we went to Edinburgh, and we went to Helensburgh. Helensburgh actually was my favorite and, and different places. Not much because he was doing job, and we used to go on weekend. And we used to go to work with different park, like, Kelvin Park or Botanic Garden. So it was good, but, mostly, I was just at home.

And, but people was nice. People are nice, and this was my experience. Very friendly. And I used to go to I I I’m just now going to mosque, but before, I used to go to mosque as well.

Fay Young

You did speak English. Is that right? When yeah.

Ume Chauhdry

Yes. I used to speak very little English, but because we have one subject in English in school and college, so I did understand. But I didn’t understand the, Scottish accent. That’s when one day, I was out, and they would say, give us a cup of coffee. So I asked my husband what that means.

So they said, give us a cup of coffee. So I said, alright. So they have different, little bit different accents, so it was very difficult to understand. But sometime, my husband was with me, and he was translating and explaining, right, because he’s born part of here, so he knew everything. So he was helping me out.

Fay Young

You had your own translator. Yes. Yes. At first. And what about you, Layla? When when you arrived here in Glasgow, how did it feel?

Layla Sadr Hashem

Yeah. My experience is, different, from Ume. When I lived in Iran, I used to think immigration is something easy. Like, we put our stuff in a luggage, and we go somewhere with lots of opportunities, and we live peacefully. But the reality was completely different for me.

From the first days, I faced difficulties, and, yeah, from simple things like getting on the bus to complicated things. I face cultural, and language barriers. Especially language barrier, makes people more isolated. You know that, learning another language, when you are old, is not something easy, But, I think immigration has also a positive side. The positive side with, which I connected my self was, my, familiarity with a new culture and new traditions, as well as its civil architecture and heritage.

I think it was indeed unique and exceptional to me. As I stated, at first, I was isolated with no friends, no family. So when I went to the town, I would look on historical buildings with embedded sculptures. They were completely impressive. I used to even stay for a while, reflecting on the design and beauty, of those buildings, even though residents might take it take them, for granted.

Yeah. But, it was amazing for me.

Fay Young

So that that that’s that’s a really interesting two 2 sides of of your experience, the the the isolation and and yet the excitement, perhaps, of seeing a new environment and one so different from from where you’d come from as well. So for you both, was there a turning point in terms of just getting a a rhythm and a natural sort of sense of being in the city? How does Empower Women for Change feature in this story for you?

Layla Sadr Hashem

I first saw the ad on Instagram without knowing what it was exactly. I registered, then, I received an email, that my application, was successful. Then, I was invited for the introduction session, at, Empower Women For Change office after being isolated for a long time, especially following the pandemic. I came to meet with new people and lovely community.

Empower Women for Change, is an, organisation led by women only and, was established by Asmaa Abdullah in 2015 to help minority ethnic women integrate and thrive as well as find a meaning in their life. The organization, really proved, successful in its program, to support the increasing need of, diverse, women, towards integration and positive engagement As, it is meant to empower women, its project and services are mainly dedicated to promoting its community through, boosting confidence, active participation, and full engagement. Also, Asma, the CEO of the organization, does her best to improve the minority’s well-being, mental health, learning English, physical health, and so on.

Ume Chauhdry

I want to add further about their list of projects, community engagement project, where they, women go out and, do different things, activities, art and craft, or cycling, or other food security project, which is I I’m responsible. See, recently, me and Layla. So I I I’m responsible to document all all the food security and commands of people and how how many are benefiting and what kind of food comes. So Nusco talent project is linked with, Glasgow City College, and, they are organizing for them the ESoL classes, sewing classes, and cooking classes, and then accountancy, and, me, myself, like, new voluntary courses, which I do every Thursday. And household hardship fund, they did last year and who have difficulty to support their family and buy things.

So they give them water on maybe direct sending money some money to their bank. And to empower in creative project is art and craft teaching milestone is recently finished, and, Layla was, I think, a member of this voluntary with this project, and they did most of their activities in GOMA. Inspired women project is same. They have workshops and different kind of and then Thistle and Dandelion Residence Project, that we did last year. And, one thing I I’m just admiring about CEO Asmaa Abdullah, she is saying I treat my staff and voluntary as a family.

I just love it love this sentence, and I decided to do voluntary in this, organization. And she’s really actually proved this because I saw her, if the staff are voluntary busy. The she cleaned the place herself. She’s throwing the rubbish, and she’s asking everybody, are you alright? You need anything?

And if there is extra food, she she said, if you need it, you just take it. And is this she’s just a lovely woman, and that’s why everybody stick to, like her children. So if they say something in anger and anything, we just think as a mother mother, she’s talking to children.

Fay Young

That’s a great image of an organisation that works because of the leadership at the top inspiring throughout from the bottom to the top. It it’s how the best places work, I think. So tell us more about Thistles and dandelions then.

Layla Sadr Hashem

The thistles and dandelion, the project lasted 10 months. The volunteers, took part, in monthly heritage skills workshop, and the project had collaboration with David Livingstone Birthplace Museum. At the museum, the professionals introduced some workshops and sessions such as, object handling, collections care, and, visitor services. The aim of the of this project was to support, the volunteers to build, different skills, to see themselves within Scottish heritage, stories, collections, and item. In addition, the volunteers, increased their knowledge about Scottish heritage sector.

We also developed some skills in mindfulness, confidence building, personal development, and so on. The project, itself gave me new insights regarding Scotland heritage. And now, even, I could see the story behind the collections, at museums. Even when I go, to museum, I feel, I am connected, to the items and collections, and I have nostalgic really nostalgic feelings toward them. Maybe Ume might want to explain more.

Ume Chauhdry

Yes. Thank you, Layla. So I wanted to explain about the name Thistle and Dandelion. And the, the name was been selected by Empower Women for two staff members, like Fizek and his project volunteer coordinator and Salma, another senior staff member. The reason to choose the thistle thistle is actually a Scottish flower, and it represents Scottish history and culture.

That’s why it’s, it has positive connection and a sign of resilience, strength, and pride. And dandelion is a very resilient flower. It can grow anywhere in the world, and it’s fragile. Like, women, come from all over the world, and they are asylum seeker and refugee and maybe somebody bright, and they are fragile in this new, environment. So they they choose actually represent, thistle represent Scotland, and dandelion represent the women.

They come in this, country. We visit different historical places like art gallery, Goma Museum. We did fun art workshop and, Burrell Collection. And we went to Burrell Collection. I was inspired because it was remind me my own country, the characters and the objects.

And, I decided to compare them, 18th century objects and characters, to my country. Just now, they are still exist. So that’s why I was quite interested. And they did lots of workshop. Like, we went to Glasgow Women Library, and we didn’t know about this library at all.

I, it was new to me. So, it was, we did art and craft workshop. We did speech therapy workshop, and we did storytelling with Anna Lehr from Glasgow Museum. And we went to Hidden Garden, Tramway, and visit an air fabric exhibition we saw and was quite interested to us. And we did, visit to Hunterian Museum as well. So this unique museum, like, we see I wanted to, talk about little bit about David Livingstone Museum. So David Livingstone Museum birth place is only independent museum in Scotland that directed the preserving the legacy of David Livingstone and reexamine his work with the complex and painful reality of slavery and 19th century European attitude toward African people and community group. So, David Livingstone fight for this, slavery, and he wanted to free and change the attitude of British and European people. And he struggled about this a lot, and he got enemy as well, but he didn’t give up. So that that’s why the David Livingstone Museum attract me.

Fay Young

Yeah. So which objects or artifacts had this connection for you?

Ume Chauhdry

So I don’t I wanted to compare his childhood life and, his character his wife characters and objects. He grew up in a a Scottish family environment of personal like, they have poor. They they did hard work, and they because of poverty, they were prevent for education. And David Livingstone born, in March 1813, , Blanchard, Scotland. His parent was very poor, and he was living with his brother and sister and with his parents in a small single room at the top of tennement building that is the museum, just now, the David Livingstone Museum, for workers of court.

And there were 6 to 8 families living there with their children in small, building. It was a cotton factory, that time, and they was working there. And they were working 6 AM to 8 PM. And David Livingstone family has small room there, and this whole house was in this small room. And they have kitchen kitchen in their bedroom, bathroom, everything in this small room.

And I was wondering how they were living there. And they were using children as, labour, and, they were working in cotton mill. So I was wondering when I saw this and their story, I was wondering, it is still exist in our country. Yes. Not in Pakistan, in India, Bangladesh, Silica.

They are still using child labour. And even UK biggest brand, they have factories in these countries, and the very little children, salary is very little and less than 1 pound, and they have to do hard work to feed their family. Another thing is that they are very good. Their hands are very good in especially, they are used in carpet factories. So this was, comparing from 18th century, child labor to just now, and and it’s just going on.

And other, I compared with David Livingstone, wife. She actually born in 1821 in South Africa. Her father was Robert Moffett and Scottish missionary. And David met her father, and they married in 19th January 1845 . She was experienced traveller, and she knows several languages. And she helped David in Africa a lot with his machinery work. But because David want her to be safe and her children to be recognised as a Scottish, he he sent her and her his children to Scotland. And now her life as a bride in Scotland was similar with our Asian women who comes here. And, her in laws didn’t accept her, and it was very difficult for her to socialize in Scottish society due to her different English accent. She didn’t like climate.

That’s why I compared our life to her because she was in same situation in 18th century. More or less, we face same problems. She has house and everything there, and she went back to Africa without telling her in laws.

Layla Sadr Hashem

Yeah. And when you go to the David, Livingstone Museum, the environment is very, very nostalgic. And as Ume said, I remember that we had that iron in our home. When I was very young, I remember that my mom put the iron on on oven. When it got, very, very hot, my mom used to, like, iron our uniform when I wanted to go to school.

It was working without any electricity.

Fay Young

It’s interesting to hear you both say that because my granny in in Ireland, in fact, until she died, the iron was was exactly as you describe. It was heated on the stove. So your stories are connecting, from the David Livingstone Foundation or Museum rather. You’re telling stories that connect across so much of the world and your own personal connections as well. It’s it’s really fascinating.

So what, has arisen from that? Are you doing more of that kind of work? Do you feel differently about other museums and collections?

Ume Chauhdry

Yes. It was absolutely unique museum because it reminds us to our country and, we feel happy and, especially, slavery, child labor. I was quite upset and sad, but but they they were doing, different workshop shop with us. So they knew, what we will feel and how we will feel. So they did mindful and well-being session, art and craft session, and photography.

Then they engage us to to be very happy, excited, and do something. So, it was very good for us, and it was, absolutely you unique museum because before I used to go with my husband to art gallery and museum, we just, walking around and, looking something, reading something, and that’s all. But this museum speak to us and every object, especially in living room. And okay. Some ladies was from Africa, and they were very interested and engaged in African objects and characters.

And we engage actually, me and Layla was quite interested in David Livingstone’s bathroom. And, it was very good because some poor people, live, in Pakistan like this or in Iran or in a very small place and very, very big family, and they don’t have enough money to buy big houses. But, I was so shocked, how, same time the, this building was a factory and living for a 5 family and was very hard. Most interesting and amazing thing for me to say that leaving Livingstone, working from 6 o’clock to 8 o’clock in this factory, and then he studied from Glasgow University. And he was walking every day from Blantyre to Glasgow, University.

That time, winter was full of snow, and I was amazed how he did that. It was quite amazing. And other thing is his wife life and his, actually, I inspired with his mother because his religious training and other training was quite influenced on David Livingstone character and personality. So, she was raising 6, 7 children and doing everything for them. I remember my parents.

I have 6 brother and sister. And my mother, how she was teasing us, we were not a middle class in lower middle class, but we were all educated. And now our life become better, like David Livingstone, brother and sister, and his life changed, and then they moved from that building. And, like, we moved from our house and bought bigger house. So it was quite interesting, and I just love this museum.

Layla Sadr Hashem

Yeah. He had amazing character, really.

Fay Young

So you both have responded very personally to what you learned. And and it is very striking, this connection between the past and the present and how some things just don’t change. Can you tell us a little bit about how what you’ve gained from this experience, how how it is part of the continuing influence of Empower Women. And the experience you’ve gained from this, how it reinforces your own self confidence and connection with the city. Glasgow is such a great multicultural city, but the skills and talents of ethnic minority people are not always fully put to good use.

Do you feel that something like Thistles and Dandelions and Empower Women for Change indeed, can help to change the balance of that?

Ume Chauhdry

I can say that because, when we came here and we I was living in the house and looking after my kids, and, I didn’t, go out quite often. But since I joined this project, I met lots of lady from all over the world, and I made friendship. And, usually, I didn’t like to speak to people, in front of people, and I had lack of confidence. Even I was I used to do study, but when, come to the presentation, I said no because, I just scared to speak at front of people. But, since I, did the tour guide and met different kind of professional people, and they were doing workshop.

And, speech therapy was quite helpful for me when they organise in women library. So, I got more confidence. I’m not a same person now. Now I am quite confident, and now I develop heritage skills through searching about object and handling object, and that was quite good. Actually, well-being workshops reduce my stress and depression.

And another amazing thing is because, I knew IT and information technology, but I developed new digital skill use search method and about object writing short reports and writing below. That improves my digital skill, improved as well.

Layla Sadr Hashem

As you mentioned, exactly, the same for me. I gained, confidence, because I was isolated completely, especially during coronavirus. And then when we, like, went to the introduction session at the first, like, session, we I met lovely women, and I made friends even. And during these 10 months, I gained self confidence, and even the project gave me insight to see, more deeply when I go to museums, different museums. Now I can, see the story behind collection, and, it gave me, very deep insight regarding Scotland heritage, Scottish heritage.

And, now I more, like, feel Glasgow or Scotland is like my home, really, my home.

Fay Young

Yeah. That’s that’s quite a remarkable outcome from this, that you feel you feel at home in the city now.

Ume Chauhdry

Yeah. Yes. Me too like this. I just enjoy now because I know the places. I know how to go there, and I meet my friends.

And, actually, we were not just, doing our project. We were solving each other problem, listening to, each other the stories, and encourage them to come forward and do things. And you can do it. Like, our tour guide, I said, I don’t want to do How I will speak to 35 people? Then staff or and, my, another friends, who were doing well.

No. You can do it. Do it. You have to do it. You can do it.

So so it was just encouraging each other, and we got, develop new skills in heritage through community engagement, working with industry professional, actually, they were very good to improve our ability to integrate in society and just, and make friends and our stress level. And they look after us, very well, and our travel expensive paid. And if somebody need to pick up children, they make sure they, finished right on time so they can go, and they were very flexible, and they were very helpful. And, they look looked after a lot. And if we had stress and depression and they speak individually, everybody, and if they want to refer to other organization, they did.

So after project, I was sad to leave actually Empower Women, so I decided to stay. So I started to volunteer with them. So I’m assistant IT officer in Empower Women, and now I’m doing the food security documentation as well. And then, I got a chance, like other women to go to city college. So I like this, voluntary training course.

And, now I got chance in, GOMA Library to do the digital poll, voluntary. So looking forward, because they are applying for funding for another heritage project. So I’m looking forward or very keen to do that as well.

Layla Sadr Hashem

Yeah. We get together regularly, and, also, we are working, as volunteers as, Ume stated at the office. In these days, Hasma has some projects to boost well-being and, mental and physical health of the minority women. At the moment in the office, I’m doing research regarding a minority’s physical health as we have planned to boost women’s strength and involve them to do more exercise and be, more active physically.

Ume Chauhdry

Thank you, Layla. As you mentioned, I remember you we were doing before Ramadan the, yoga, classes and therapy, and this is another chance to meet all the team of Thistle and Dandelion project to meet each other and doing some Yeah. Something useful and, mindfulness for it is good for our mindfulness.

Fay Young

What you’re describing is so positive. One of the questions that we like to put to guests is, are there reasons for hope in the dark time that we often feel we’re living in? And what you’re describing seemed to me to give lots of reasons for hope. But what do you feel?

Layla Sadr Hashem

Yeah. For me, I try to find, opportunities to develop new skills and learn something new as I only find meaning, in my life when I do some, positive things, in my community. Even, if it is very small, do something and help someone and make their, life easier. Yeah. This, make me happy.

Also, my my effort to help minority like, progress and, flourish, especially regarding their mental health and physical health. This can, like Mhmm. Make me happy.

Ume Chauhdry

Yes. It’s same like Layla said. Everybody was saying, oh, you find the job of the I said, no. I’m doing the voluntary while, trying to get the job. And this voluntary, actually, in our religion is, ongoing charity to help others.

And, if I know, like, IT, and so I can teach them there, so I feel happy and, relax. Okay? I I have some knowledge, and I’m giving them. And when I hear their story and I empathise with them and that is very good. I feel so much happy and, relax.

Okay. I am going there and doing useful things and, helping other women, especially, they came from Africa or Middle East or all over the place, different countries. And, they they have their own stories and some left husbands and children there and came here. Some left parents, and it was quite sad and stressful for them. So we are living here, so, we’re helping them as much as we can.

So they feel like, they are at home.

Fay Young

That that’s so heartwarming to hear what you have to say. And, unbelievably, we’ve reached nearly reached the end of our conversation. So the the last question is one that we ask everybody, and that is, what is your favorite building in Glasgow?

Ume Chauhdry

My favourite building was, quite interesting because, it was the end of project we visit is a transport museum. I visit before 2, 3 time every year, so with my children. But this time was quite different because our staff member, Vera and Ruby, he was, with us. So we went there, and, they were explaining very nicely. And because we become friend and we did so naughty things, and we went to ship, and we was just ringing the bell.

And somebody said, stop ringing the bell. That was too much. So then we were sitting in the old subway train and was we were discussing about why Edinburgh don’t have the subway. They said they there was a plague in, I think, 18th century, and there was a lots of bodies that buried underground. So they can’t and there’s a mountain area.

They can’t make subway. That’s where maybe Trump. And then, we were talking about ghosts. So and we were so scared, and we just ran away from South Beach. And then, I, it was amazing.

I saw the, Pakistani van and was so decorated, and there was a poetry like we have in, Pakistan in truck and buses and van. They are all decorated, and they have different poetry and different phrases in there. So that was quite interesting. And we explore every object in-depth, And the staff member explained very well. That’s why I I just love this building.

Layla Sadr Hashem

Yeah. To answer this question, I want to admit something. To be honest, when I was teenager and in my twenties, unfortunately, I was not keen to go to museums. I didn’t see any point in looking, at or reflecting on old collections and items in in museums. I always was looking forward.

But when I got old, little by little and, I also when I moved to Glasgow, my views changed. At the beginning, when I travelled to the city center and, the area around, I used to feel the outstanding symmetrical buildings were talking to me, especially when I came to know, that, you know, that some of buildings, in the town, were built during slavery era, by some slave trade merchants. Also to add, that over the years, I came to recognise, more and more the beauty and creativity of historical landmark museum collections. Also, I would say, visited lots of attraction and museum through the Thistle and Dandelions project. I could see now and feel the story behind those historical buildings and museum collections.

It really gave me deep insight, and now, I got more impressed by Glasgow environment, historical landmark, cultural attraction. And, now I think Glasgow maintains nostalgia for the past and also, excitement for the future. Yeah. I got impressed by all styles here, like Gothic, Victorian, Art Nouveau, and art deco style, symmetrical, decorative, trim, stained glass, embedded sculpture. All those design really draw my attention.

But, if I want to pick just one buildings, I would say that a C and symmetry behind it, Necropolis. I always think, how would, the cathedral was built at that time when architects had limited resources and materials, but they, produced the architectural masterpiece and a phenomenon design, I think.

Fay Young

Two very different answers and both so interesting and taking us into both spaces and the context as well. Thank you so much. And thank you both really for a tremendous insight into your own lives, but also your own lives in in Glasgow. And you’ve been very generous in sharing those experiences. And I might just add, when you were talking about thistles and dandelions, as a gardener, I was thinking, well, traditionally thistles and dandelions have both been regarded as weeds.

But with the new interest in creating wilder, more natural gardens, they are both regarded now as great sources of of of, wildlife. You know, they’re they’re rich in in seed and nourishment, which seems to me a a great description of what you’ve been sharing with us today. Thank you both so much.

Ume Chauhdry

Thank you so much. You were so lovely. You gave us chance to explain and tell our tell us our story. Yeah. Exactly.

Layla Sadr Hashem

Thank you so much.

Katharine Neil

Glasgow City Heritage Trust is an independent charity and grant funder that promotes the understanding, appreciation, and conservation of Glasgow’s historic built environment. Do you want to know more? Have a look at our website atglasgowheritage.org.uk and follow us on social media at Glasgow Heritage. This podcast was produced by Inner Ear for Glasgow City Heritage Trust and is sponsored by Tunnock’s.

Niall Murphy

What strikes me about Mackintosh is a lot of the materials going through that whole experience of rebuilding the library and looking at things like that after the fire. It It was like looking at the various materials, and some of them were quite humble, but it’s the artistry with which he puts all of that together. So seeing it in pieces would be quite fascinating because it would be completely different from having that kind of amazing spatial experience, how he brings all these parts together and really is able to define his Absolutely.

Robyne Calvert

And and also because it’s not, like, perfect and mathematical in any way, shape, or form, and that will be something they did discover through trying to figure out what it would take to reconstruct those rooms as well, back in the back with the tea rooms. You know, this was very true of the library as it’s not like these were equally measured planks of board that made up the ceilings and the floors and everything. They were they were made to measure as the project went along.

Niall Murphy

Okay, everyone. Welcome to series 3 of If Glasgow’s Walls Could Talk. And, today, we are talking to Robyne Calvert about Charles Rennie Mackintosh and the Mac. Robyne is the author of The Mac, Charles Rennie Mackintosh and the Glasgow School of Art, and tantalisingly, our conversation is taking place in early March 2024, and Robyne’s book is due for publication in April 2024, so it’s not yet back from the printers. But we do already know it is a labour of love whose appearance may stir many emotions in a city still suffering from the impact of the fire that destroyed the Mac So, Robyne, tell me a little bit about yourself.

Robyne Calvert

I have been living here for, going on a 18 years. I came here to do a master’s degree at the University of Glasgow. I had been, previously doing a master’s in in Oregon, and and I, I decided that I wanted to write about, the the tea rooms because I had discovered, the four in a in a design history class and had never seen them in my life and thought they were very exciting. And so I got lucky enough to be able to move here and do a second master’s in decorative arts and design history at Glasgow and decided to write about, Margaret Macdonald’s gesso panels. And then, I just stayed to do my PhD, which was inspired by how the four dressed.

I was curious about Mackintosh’s floppy bow tie and Margaret Macdonald’s clothes. So I did that. I wrote about how artists dressed, in the Victorian era. And, then because, I guess, I got this little Mackintosh niche, I started out as a lecturer in Architecture Architectural history and Design history at the Glasgow School of Art. And then after, the 2014 fire, I was appointed, the Mackintosh research fellow there, and I I worked on the projects there.

Niall Murphy

Let’s kinda go back to the fires. So, you know, the first of these fires is is almost exactly 10 years ago now. It’s just coming up. The anniversary is gonna be in Yeah. May, which is astonishing to think about because it just seems like the other day it happened.

It’s, you know, 1 of these things, it’s like A Princess Diana or a JFK moment. It’s one of those things. If you know the Mac and, you know, you know that context, it was such a shock. So, you know, that was the first of the fire. And so at that point, you were kind of researching and teaching at the Glasgow School of Art, and you were you know, you’d experienced things like that fabulous library.

And then you became part of this team of expert after after that fire 10 years ago. So advising on the the the restoration work, which, you know, obviously with my, Glasgow City Heritage Trust hat on, we were assisting with some funding for that. So, you know, we were very conscious of what was going on with that that team as well. And, you know, we’re acutely conscious of how painstaking your approach was to the whole thing and how you were all trying to kind of keep this concealed as it were to have this kind of beautiful reveal, and then how thwarted that that was by what happened with the the second fire in June 2018.

Robyne Calvert

Can I come in on a couple of those things?

Niall Murphy

Abs absolutely.

Robyne Calvert

Okay. Just first of all, because because the one thing I’m very conscious of is I do feel in many ways, I was an active participant, but I do feel like I was very much a bystander, and I was not one of the key people who did all the amazing work. And I’m I’m very I wanna be because I’m I’ve had the great privilege to write this book, but, you know, one of the key things about it was making sure that people know that, really, I was writing about other people’s work and voices.

So just to kinda go back to the first fire, I was a I was a lecturer there at the time, and I was at home. I mean, I think we all can do a tell a story about where were you, like you say, when that happened. You remember? And I remember I was sitting at home, and I was, like, you know, texting with people on the ground. And a good friend who was in the comms team at the time, Claire Biddle, so she was like and I have to confess.

The first thing I said was, is the gesso panel okay? Before I knew it was climbing to the library, the fire, and she was she was like, it’s out. I think it was one of the first things the fire services ripped off the wall. So, yeah, it is quite shocking that it was it was 10 years ago. And so, you know, the the but the spirit of right after it happened, you know, everyone in the school was pitching in and going in and recovering, you know, items from the building.

Obviously, there was the student work that was affected. I was in, like, two days afterwards, with the archives and recovery team because I have museum hand object handling experience and background. So I was actually working with archives and collections, literally unpacking every object from the collection to see if it was wet and then setting it to dry out. And I have to say that that, for me, personally, was an extraordinary experience to be able to help, you know, protect the objects in the archive, but to actually just see all the stuff. Literally, you had to unpack everything and make sure because there would you’d have a whole box that was dry, and then you’d open it up and somehow it was wet inside.

And so you had to make sure all the objects anyway. So so there was that kind of thing. And then I did start talking to people about, you know, there’s a huge project here, and and someone’s gonna need to kinda capture what’s happening in the research of it. Not I didn’t think I was personally in any way qualified to, you know, be the person to say, here’s how you fix it. You know, but that that there would be some kind of extraordinary project.

So I I did kind of pitch the idea of there being a research fellow, but there was a lot of internal, you know, decision making that had to happen, and then there had to be a post made. I had to interview for it, the whole thing. So, when I came into that team, I was very much thinking I would just kind of observe and and record in a way, and pitch in where I could. And it was and this is something I say in the book, actually. The first time I got to go to a design team meeting after the team was appointed and Paige Park was appointed, and

Niall Murphy

Mhmm.

Robyne Calvert

I was sitting in the back in the back of the room taking notes what they were doing, and they were looking at the hen run that day and everything and they were looking at these pictures of the hen run, from early days and I’ve never seen these photographs before. They’re from our archives And and they had and it had the gridded roof instead of the pitched roof…

Niall Murphy Yeah. Yeah. So it

Robyne Calvert

was sitting there, like, wondering what the dates of the photograph was because it wasn’t dated. It had no notes or anything. And it was David Page and he turned around, and I didn’t even realize he knew a thing about me. He turned around and he looked at me and he said, what we need is a fashion historian who can date these photographs for us. And I was like, oh.

And I went up and I looked and I’m look and I’m like, I’d say 1914 by the skirt and the this and the that and that. And and that was how he very suddenly, like, welcomed me, I feel, like, into that. And and from that point forward, I would I just kinda I did still kick back, but I knew that if there was some thought that I had or something that I could add to the conversation, it would be welcome. So I was just thinking about when you said about the photographs that you took and other people took. One of the interesting pieces and difficult pieces of this book, in terms of just the project is that, you know, there was gonna be these really beautiful photographs of the finished building

Niall Murphy

Yeah.

Robyne Calvert

And there’s not. And so weirdly

Niall Murphy

You never got that review.

Robyne Calvert

No. And so weirdly, although I I’m really pleased with the book, and I think it will you’ve seen a little bit. I hope you think pretty. But Yes. There’s

Niall Murphy

Yeah. I was reading it, so I should’ve skimmed it, but I started reading it. So and it’s quite emotional.

Robyne Calvert

That that’s nice to hear. Yeah. So but if you look towards the end, the photographs are really quite rubbish in some ways because you’d expect these big, beautiful, you know, Yale production, etcetera. But they’re the tiny little

Niall Murphy

The the Bedford Lemere of

Robyne Calvert

the day. Exactly. And there were there are Bedford I mean, so luckily, the beautiful Bedford Lemere pictures are nice and big. But towards the end, all you get are these, like, quarter page tiny snapshots because that’s literally all that exists. So we we did what we had to do.

And, anyway yeah. I but it is really upsetting when you think about all the work that went into it, all the amazing craft that was lost. And, but I think even more upsetting is the effect that it had on the community and particularly the local community on Garnethill . That was a massive, massive impact.

Niall Murphy

Okay. Before we get further into this, I’d just like to wind back more to, you know, where this started from in terms of your interest in Charles Rennie Mackintosh and, you know, how you found yourself in Glasgow. So so, you know, because everybody’s kind of, experience of Charles Rennie and Mackintosh has a different starting point and, you know, you you develop a relationship with him, Margaret Macdonald as well on the back of all that. So how did that all come about initially? Tell us more about that.

Robyne Calvert

Well, I had, been working in museums for quite a while, and I decided I wanted to go back to graduate school and and get my master’s and all that kind of stuff. And I was deciding whether or not I was suited to the to it. I I went to in in the states, we’ve got community college. Some of you might have seen in the show, community. So so yeah.

So I went to the local community college and I took a design history course because I’d also, started I did some work as a designer in that period and kinda got was getting interested in design history. And, it was just a basic design history course, and and I and in the course, and all the wonderful poster art and, you know, Art Nouveau and everything, said these Scottish artists show up, which I, like I said, I’d never seen before in a in a very stupid way was, like, you know, there’s art in Scotland. Like, you don’t you know, it is that horrific tartan fantasy garbage, which I think, you know, I can say this I can say this as an American, you know, is the perception. That, you know, it’s it’s a vibe. And and that now I know obviously is completely ridiculous and lacking in in the huge the bigger context. So but I was.

I was just absolutely to be honest, I just thought it was beautiful. I mean and, you know, it’s kind of as art historians, you’re, you know, you’re supposed to be critical and that’s not because something’s pretty is not anyway, like, there’s a reason you’re called to something in the first place. There’s something that speaks to you. Yeah. And it was actually the posters was the first thing I ever saw.

Like, the musical review poster and the Jerico poster, was that first slide. And I was like, what is this? And then they showed the tea rooms, and I’m like, what is this? You know? So, yeah.

So I got some fun I decided I wanted to learn more, and I I kind of looked, and there wasn’t, like, loads of stuff published on it. This was early 2000, really. I mean, there’s some great works out there, but and, you know, if you compare it to something like, you know, Picasso or Frida Kahlo, there’s, like, 80,000,000 , bucks. You know? So, yeah, I just decided I wanted to learn more and write about that, and and I chose it as project of my thesis.

And then I got funding to come to Scotland to do the research and, at the same time, realized that that I could come study here and go further. And so that’s kind of that that’s that ended up being what I did, and I got quite lucky and had mentors who are great scholars in the community. And yeah.

Niall Murphy

So what what was it like kind of come come to Glasgow from from the States? What was that experience of kind of seeing seeing both Mackintosh and Margaret Macdonald’s work, you know, in real life?

Robyne Calvert

The first thing I saw because we got in on a flight in the late afternoon, and and I had all these various appointments for the next day. And the first thing I saw was the west elevation of the art school. I took a walk that evening, and my my friend who had been here before walked me kind of around the corner. And he’s like, let’s just go up the hill here. And I was like, alright.

And then all of a sudden, it was there. And, dearly, I still have the photograph I took, which was now on, like, a really hazy like, it’s low resolution weird kinda thing. But, yeah, there it was. And and that was really exciting to see the building from the outside. I I remember, obviously, going to see the gesso panels in the Kelvingrove was fantastic.

But I I’ll say the coolest experience I had, I had gotten in touch with Alison Brown, who is the curator of European Art at Glasgow Museums, as you know, but not not everyone might know that. And at the time, they were doing the projects up in Maryhill where they had all the pieces of the Ingram Street Tea Room laid out and they were cataloging it and measuring it to see what it would take to reconstruct it. She had a grant to do this. And fast forward to now, this is why we’ve got The Oak Room at the V&A Dundee.

That’s one of the results of that years later. But at the time, it was laid out in bits, and she invited me up to Maryhill to literally so I saw Mackintosh in pieces lying on a floor in a warehouse. And in fact, Helen Kendrick, who we both know, who used to work for GCAT, was working on the project at the time there before I ever met Helen. She must have been there that day. So it was amazing actually, but I had a really weird privileged view of, like, Mackintosh and Pieces being one of the first Mackintosh things I ever saw laying on a floor.

Niall Murphy

That must be abs absolutely fascinating. I mean, what strikes me about Mackintosh is, a lot of the materials I mean, this was what was interesting and going through that whole experience of, you know, rebuilding the library and looking at things like that after the fire. It was like looking at the the various materials, and some of them are quite humble. But it’s it’s the it’s the artistry with which he puts all of that together. So seeing it in pieces would be quite fascinating because it would be completely different from having that kind of amazing spatial experience, how he brings all these parts together and really is able to define his piece.

Robyne Calvert

Absolutely. And and also because, and now this is something I know from the work that well, other people did on the back, and I I learned from it. It’s not, like, perfect and mathematical in any way, shape, or form, and that will be something they did discover through trying to figure out what it would take to reconstruct those rooms as well, back in the back with the tea rooms. You know, this was very true of the library as it’s not like these were equally measured planks of board that made up the ceilings and the floors and everything. They were they were made to measure as the project went along.

So, you know, some of them make a lot of sense and are everything, but the working out of the maths of how these things you know, in order to reconstruct it and and especially in the case at least at least with the tearooms, you know, they had dismantled everything in pieces, and I think they were fairly carefully marked and cataloged. But it was still like they had all the pieces of a big puzzle to put back together. Yeah. The library, the pieces were mostly ash.

Niall Murphy

So Yeah. Yeah. How do how on earth do you figure out how? I mean, it’s lucky that that space has been so well documented by, you know, various people, Paul Clark being one of them, you know, in in a whole series of drawings. So in some ways, it’s quite a well recorded room,

Robyne Calvert:

but the however on that though is, if I could just say, the however on that though is is that Paul did the yeah. Paul’s drawings were very, very important. There’s a little note to them in the book and, and loves people. But what we found really quickly is there’s a million or more photographs of the room and 0 photographs of, like, the corner of the room. The the dark areas that notice you have the same Yep.

Photograph a million times, but the real key areas that you needed to know, there’s no details of them at

Niall Murphy

all missing.

Robyne Calvert

Yeah. Totally missing.

Niall Murphy

Yes. Yeah. And it’s funny as well people’s interpretation of the space over time because I always just thought that things like the stair was part of the library. Because all the times that I was at Mac, that stair was there. So I just assumed that, well, that was part of Mackintosh’s design, then discovered that actually, that was completely wrong.

It had only been installed in the 1950s . It’s like, okay. That’s a revelation. And the same with the windows.

Robyne Calvert

Yeah. The windows had changed.

Niall Murphy

But they weren’t. Yeah. Yeah. The windows had changed.

Robyne Calvert

Debates that happened around, you know, what to reinstate, and, you know, do we put those stairs back? And the and and I was quite pleased the decision was no because it wasn’t used in the same way. Yes. And,

Niall Murphy

Yes. Yeah.

Robyne Calvert

Absolutely. Even going back to, it being a library that was to be used again, which was the intention, a kind of special collection space, you could still use the outside stairwell to access the mezzanine as as was intended in the first place. The the debate I became really interested in in a super nerdy way was about the librarian’s box that was in the corner of the room, the office. Mhmm. Because I’m not gonna name names.

But when I say architects, I don’t mean Paige Park people on that team. I mean, some of our advisory panel people. We’re really arguing very strongly for that box not to be there. And they fully believe that Mackintosh hated that box and didn’t want it there because it didn’t show up in the Bedford Lemere photographs. But the thing is he did design that box.

It it wasn’t in the original drawings, but he did design it at the request of the librarian who said, well, we need an office. And so at first, he put it kind of in the center of the room, and then they said there’s not enough light then, and they moved it to the corner. So there was this case being made, well, Mackintosh didn’t want it there, so we shouldn’t put it back. But then I was on the team of which a lot of design team were like, well, but but he built it. Though it was there when it it opened, but it’s not in the Bedford Lemere photographs.

And then because of this is one of the small research bits I had done, I’m like, those photographs were taken before the room was finished because if you look at them at the furniture package, the the shelf on the magazine rack is not there. The chairs are there, but the tables aren’t there. And we have one of the things about the GSA is and the reason all of this can be done is they’re pack rats, and we had all the bills from the delivery of the furniture package and I could literally see October the desk and chairs were delivered. October the desk was delivered. In November, the magazine rack and the tables were delivered.

That means Bedford Lemere came between these two dates to take the photograph. Oh, and the library box was delivered later also. So it was literally the evidence was there that they were just taken before it was installed. Not that with Mackintosh was like, take it now. I hate that box.

So

Niall Murphy

I’ve been forced to do it against my will.

Robyne Calvert:

Yes. I do. So and that’s a really challenging thing too because there’s so many people who wanted Mackintosh wouldn’t have wanted that. And I’m like, where’s your Ouija board? You know?

Yes. Yeah. Absolutely. These fun debates around that. And I think it’s hard for architects as well clearly because, you know, there’s stuff that he wanted to do that he couldn’t achieve because of the technology.

The hen runs the classic example. Like, he you know, that gridded roof failed. That’s why it became a pitched roof. But now we can build it so it won’t fail. You know?

And, and so yeah. It is I think you’re right. He did make things. He made things beautiful where they had to be apparent. What if he could have hidden them in some way to have a cleaner line or something?

Maybe, but that’s not what he did.

Niall Murphy

Exactly. It’s not what he actually did. So, yeah, I know. I thought I was I thought I was interesting in philosophical terms, and I thought actually might be a little bit too purist, but it was but he’s he always seems to be a pragmatist in how he designs stuff, so that was interesting to me. Anyway, just to go back to you and the book.

So it’s getting published by Yale, and it’s due for a release in April. So the book’s gonna address all these controversies arising from The Second Fire. Tell us how the book came about.

Robyne Calvert

Like I said, I I think we were you know, as a researcher, I always thought, well, my job is going to be to make sure that we capture what happens here. And also, just to say, it was also to encourage other people to engage with it too. It wasn’t just about me and my doing this. It was trying to get other people, whether it was internally at GSA or external friends and partners to to engage with, what was going on. So it it did just come about, I think, in the way I don’t say the way the way these things do of I had planned to do this and and got in conversation with a couple publishers through various connections.

And, Yale was very keen. And, you know, speaking as an academic and art historian, Yale’s the dream. That is, you know, one of the great publishers of art and architecture, particularly British art and architecture. So, yeah, they they I mean, I had to still write the proposal and do all the things and have it reviewed and go through all the proper channels, and it’s all, you know, all the things. So so I just like I said, I was I was, you know, capturing things and and making lots of notes.

And it it was a very difficult project, to say the least. And I I don’t mean that in any kind of, you know but obviously, you know, you’re writing something to be a celebration and then it it’s it’s destroyed. And Yes. Yeah. Yale have been absolutely phenomenal in their support and understanding.

Like, they were just like, right. What do you wanna do? And I’m like, well

Niall Murphy

Right. Okay.

Robyne Calvert

I think there’s still a story here to be told, but I just don’t know what it is at this moment. They’re like, right. Okay. Well, come back to us. Like, you know, obviously, take some space.

Come back to us, etcetera. And I was very keen that it didn’t become well, at first, I was you know, we were all very emotionally affected by the second fire. And I was like, this is not going to be a eulogy because we are going to rebuild. You know? And the thing is, I had a I had a not tote not unique perspective, but a particular perspective because I’ve been worked so closely with the project.

I knew a 100% it could be rebuilt from from go. Like, I knew that we knew we knew enough to do it, and particularly, the team that had worked on it knew that building better than anyone ever has. And it was just, could we do it? Could you do it financially? Or and, also, immediately, was was it even gonna be anything left?

I mean, watching it rage. Yeah. We it Yeah. Just you just knew it was gonna be completely gutted. So was it going to be Yeah.

So destroyed that the only reasonable thing to do would be to level it? That was the worry. Mhmm. Mhmm.

Niall Murphy

I didn’t realize until I was about reading the introduction to the book, that he’d actually been there witnessing the fire, which was horrendous. I mean, I got I got woken up in, like, 4 o’clock in the morning

Robyne Calvert

Yeah.

Niall Murphy

And, you know, kind of shown an image from the BBC. So you’re not gonna believe there’s been other fire. And I was like, no. No. No.

That must be that must

Robyne Calvert:

You know, Niall, I wasn’t. I I wasn’t down there, actually. I I was awake when it it had happened, and I was being sent pictures immediately. And and at first, I didn’t think it was real.

I was like, nah. That’s a joke. Someone’s photoshopped that. Like and then it was like, no look. And I was and then, like I said in the beginning, rather silly it was rather silly.

I ran to Twitter, and then it was Sam Heughan from Outlander who was, like, Mac on fire. That’s the first tweet I saw, which was, like, what is happening right now? I didn’t go I could have gone down. In hindsight, I kinda wish I had. And that day was graduation day, and I just got home actually.

And I wasn’t home long. And I wish I’d gone down because I know now that other people did and they were on the roof of the Blythswood building watching it. And I I wish I had been down there with them because of the kinda solidarity. I didn’t go though because I thought I’d be in the way, honestly. I was like, I’m not a person who is needed there now in a crisis.

Like, the people who are needed in the crisis are there. They’re on their way. They’re go because the person who messaged me the picture was like, we need to call someone. I’m like, they’re on their way. Like, there’s no if you’re seeing this now, like, they’re already on their way.

And all I would be doing my view this is just me personally. All I would be doing down there is being in the way and being, like, participating in the grief or whatever, and that’s not necessary. Like, I felt like it was really important that I stayed away, quite frankly, and let people get on with what they needed to get on with in this crisis. I didn’t sleep much, and I was down there at about 6:30 in the morning, you know, and I met, my PhD students down there, Rachel, who you know very well, Rachel Purce and and Carolyn Alexander, we all made a we arranged to meet at the the Costa on the corner, and it was, of course, all chaos down there. And very quickly, we ended up finding people for the project.

And I was getting texts. So I knew people were down there because people were texting me from the rooftop. So I was kind of wasn’t there, but I was there in a weird way. So I didn’t actually see it, burn live, and I’m that part, I am kinda glad about. I

Niall Murphy

Yeah. It would have been horrendously emotional for you. I mean, just I think

Robyne Calvert

it was. And it it what I’ve said about it and I don’t this sounds really dramatic. And like you said, I know I’ve written, like, an emotional thing, but that night, I I just remember I the feeling I felt was despair. And that’s not an emotion that I that’s not a word I use lately. It’s not a thing that I like to call out.

I’m, you know, I’m a outgoing passionate kind of person, but I’m not I don’t think a huge drama queen. But despair what utter despair was how I felt that night. And and, you know, and if you compare it to the first fire, I was heartbroken, And I did go down on the first fire. I was standing on the corner watching the flames come out of the library. And then we all went to the state bar, got drunk, and had a really good night, actually, in the end because everybody was talking about how much they loved the building.

It was, like, awake. And, like, the whole community was there, and it was still standing. You could still go in. We were like, oh, no. What are we and then it became quite good.

This was completely different. And, of course, nobody was down there.

Niall Murphy

Yeah. It really was.

Robyne Calvert

It was just it was it was a disaster. It was an absolute disaster. And, Yeah.

Niall Murphy

And real real anger on the back of it as well. Anger. That’s my recollection.

Robyne Calvert

Real much anger. It was a completely different Yeah.

Niall Murphy

How how on earth could that happen again?

Robyne Calvert

And I was getting at that point, I was getting calls from the media first thing the next morning from people who I just talked to about the project before and I was like, I’m sorry. I can’t say anything. Not because and I I do wanna say this and I was never at any point while I worked for the art school for 6 years or at any point in the couple years since I haven’t worked there, I was never once told I couldn’t talk about something. Just I’m I’m very happy to say this on the record because I think there’s a lot of misperceptions. I have I was never ever told I couldn’t say a thing.

Some of that might be trust in me having common sense. There are certain things I wouldn’t say just simply because I’d like you know, I don’t know all the information so why would I talk about that? So when when people called me the next morning and were like, can you talk about this? My answer was no primarily because I didn’t know anything. Like, why would I talk to you about this when I have no information?

As almost as a scholar, I can’t do something like that. That’s just not ethical.

Niall Murphy

Yeah. Complete complete thorough.

Robyne Calvert

I think there was trust in us from an ethical consideration. So this idea is about, like, listen. I’m fully I get why people were angry and and, actually, not to say I support it, but, like, it’s reasonable to me. I I like that anger is so reasonable to me and the ongoing anger is so reasonable to me. But it was quite challenging to kinda be on the inside and then see how things were being reported.

I was able to take a pause, and then, I was, you know, first adamant it wasn’t gonna be a eulogy. And then I was like, okay. Well but I have to deal with this. And for me, personally, the really big helpful thing that happened was the pandemic. Because at that point, I mean, I was like, you know what?

It’s a building. There was a I hit a point where I was like, it’s a building. It’s not thousands of people dying from all over the world. You know? It it puts things into perspective.

Niall Murphy

Yeah. It does put things

Robyne Calvert

into perspective. Even put things into perspective. You know? Like

Niall Murphy

Oh, yeah. Gren Grenfell. I had I had yeah. Yeah. Grenfell, made you know, obviously, I was upset with Glasgow School of Art, but Grenfell made me really angry as an architect.

I mean Because I knew exactly how all those interfaces were meant to work, and it was a fundamental failing. And it was on so many different professions that that that happened, and everyone was like, nope. What is worth? And Yeah. Totally unacceptable.

Robyne Calvert

Completely. So, you know, you have these things that happen in the world that make you go, okay. At the end of the day, like, it’s yeah. Of course. And I still obviously love this building.

It’s a building. And, and it gave me this the time, and that gave me a bit of perspective to kind of, at some point and I know other people from the team came to this conclusion probably sooner than I did, was to be able to say it’s been destroyed. I for a long time, I couldn’t say it’s been destroyed. I was like, even even after I’d been inside, actually, which I went I did go inside finally right after it was right before lockdown, and, the central area had been cleared of debris while they were still doing the fire investigation. I got in.

And even at that, I’m like, it’s not destroyed. I can still see it. You know? So, like and at some point, I can’t. I’m like, no.

It’s destroyed. A Ruin. And I and so it changed the tone of the way I wrote about it. And so it is written about as as a ruin, but as a ruin that can be rebuilt. And I think part of what I hope, if there’s some kind of contribution that this book has, I hope.

And this is actually something I wrote, I think, even before it burned it was destroyed fully. The thing about buildings is we tend to see buildings as these fixed structures, as these monuments, really, particularly, you know, great buildings as things that will outlive us, that will, you know, last as symbols of our immortality. You know? Because they’re buildings. They’re strong.

They’re stable. They’re built of stone and brick, and they’re, you know, heavy, and they’re big. And

Niall Murphy

Yes. Yeah.

Robyne Calvert

But, actually, buildings change more than anything. Buildings change through our use, our habitation. They adapt. They fail and have to be fixed. We have to take care of them.

They are absolutely the opposite of fixed monuments. They change. We re reinvent them. We sometimes badly. We we fill a, you know, a we change a 4 story edifice into a 7 floor office space inside.

You know? And and I think so part of what I come, like, from the academic side, at the end of the day, if you made me pick one of those hats, I say I’m a design historian. And the thing about working in design history and material culture is you understand that design is iterative and it changes. And we don’t think a thing about recopying a Mackintosh chair. We still call it a Mackintosh chair if we make a copy of it and sit in it or whatever.

Yeah. But if we may were to make a copy of a building, suddenly it’s not a Mackintosh building anymore. And I think we need

Niall Murphy

Yes. Yeah. I don’t buy that.

Robyne Calvert

So I think we have to think about buildings more as as design objects, really. They are design objects, and they change Yeah. And they change with us. And if we can

Niall Murphy

Yep. I agree.

Robyne Calvert

I thought you might. So I think if No.

Niall Murphy

I think all of all of all the kind of I mean, it’s an it’s an inevitability about life. You know? You have to live, and you have to make things work for you. So so it happens. And, anyway, the act of building is always an act of translation because you as an architect, are you drawing out your design either now in, you know, using BIM or CAD, which is what I worked on Or, you know, prior to that, I was at the cusp of the change between, you know, draw drawing boards and, computer aided design.

And so it’s always you are putting your thoughts down on paper, which is one act of translation, and then you’re handing that to a bunch of people on a site to interpret. And it’s how well you can get them to interpret something. That’s a second act of translation too. So as long as you’ve got those blueprints, you can always rebuild something. You know?

And it’s gonna be yet another generation’s interpretation of, you know, somebody’s ideas.

Robyne Calvert

Yeah.

Niall Murphy

So it’s not I I don’t think it’s the the typical knee jerk architectural response is, oh, it would be a pastiche. It wouldn’t be real. But it wouldn’t be because it would it would be a faithful recreation. And I hate the word pastiche anyway.

Robyne Calvert

You know, I kind of I I know what you mean, but it what’s funny about it is buildings are pastiches by their very nature. That’s literally exact almost what you just said about the translation. You know what I mean? And those additions and impressions.

Niall Murphy

It is. It’s never your original idea. It’s always somebody’s interpretation, and you have to learn as an architect that you have to let go at some point, and you have to let a crafts person or a builder on-site interpret what your ideas is. And you can, you know, hopefully, if you’re in a position do that, say, okay. Yeah.

That’s what I was thinking, or Mhmm. Maybe it’s not, but budget won’t let me, you know, won’t let me redo it. I’ll just have to accept it. And, you know, that that happens, and that’s all that part of part, you know, part of the act of building. You can’t be that pure.

Robyne Calvert

And I think that’s what Mackintosh did exactly. I mean, there’s bits about the design of the pendants in the library that I wonder about. That was one of the other small areas of that I got to contribute kind of some research thoughts to.

Niall Murphy

That’s that that was really fascinating, that, as a wee exercise.

Robyne Calvert

Yeah. Yeah. And also just me as a, you know, a researcher to maybe I should sketch this and try to figure it out. And so I did. You know?

And Yeah. We we had a minute that minute where we thought there’s not photographs of every single one of the pendants, and people kept coming to me asking me questions about look. They well so there’s a little bit of a thing. They were they came to me asking questions about what they meant because they felt like there was a code in them to crack, and that’s how how they could figure out what the pattern would have been. If they knew the code to crack, they can figure out the patterns.

And I and then I Right. Being me, would be like, let me explain to you how symbolist art and design works. Like like, the meaning is for you to interpret, ultimately kind of is one of the underpinning messages of my book, like, without doing the spoiler of just, like, this dialogue that it gives you, you know, as as the user. Mhmm. But, but that said, I was like, right.

Okay. Well, let me sit and see if I can figure out what the patterns are. And I had because I realized that the questions were coming from different groups of people, and each of them was giving me a different set of data, really, photographs and things like that to work with.

Niall Murphy

Right.

Robyne Calvert

So I popped open my sketchbook, and I started sketching them. And, actually, it didn’t take me long to realize that, in fact, while there wasn’t a clear pattern in how they were made, there was an actual design that was repeated throughout that I had never noticed before until I drew it, which was the there were just 3 different patterns he used to create those pendants. Mhmm. Mhmm. So but how they came about is what we don’t know, and that’s interesting.

And I think that’s what you’re talking about. Like, did he draw out the 20 different hanging pendants around the library, mezzanine and say, right. These are the patterns I want you to make. Or did he sit with the joiner and go, right. Here’s 3 different patterns.

Let’s arrange them in different arrangements and make 20 of these.

Niall Murphy

Yeah.

Robyne Calvert

And I’ll leave you to Yeah. You know, or he

Niall Murphy

And interpret as best you can.

Robyne Calvert

I mean, probably, I would think it he did have some more say in what that what those looked like as a designer. He would have maybe had a bit more control, but we don’t know the extent to which he worked. And he did work, I think No. And I have to give a shout out here just because the Mackintosh Architecture Project at the University of Glasgow, which has catalogued all of the drawings and everything, is an amazing project. I I always think that if they could track IPs, mine has to be the top hit on that website.

Niall Murphy

I love going back into it. It’s a fantastic resource. It’s really interesting because you can find out about various craftspeople while you’re at it. It’s not just Mackintosh. It’s the whole everybody who is involved.

Robyne Calvert

That’s exactly why I was mentioning it because, one of the things I did do, and it’s only a little bit in the book because there wasn’t, like, a load, but there but I started you can search who all the craftspeople are in it, like you say, and see the different projects they worked on. So I was able to see that the Mhmm. People who did the roof of the Mac also did the roof of Queen’s Cross Church. And the people who did some glass here did the glass at the Willow. And so you could see the people that they were going to repeatedly.

Now it was like, now it was two different joiners in the two different phases of the building that there’s lots of good reasons why that could be. But, yeah, that there were people that they worked with regularly. So So so at that point, you’re building relationship with your craftspeople. So Yes. You know, what level of trust there was between and and clearly for a space like the library, one, you will, I would imagine, retain some degree of control and and and say in something like that.

But, two you’re gonna wanna work with the people you trust the most to get it right.

Niall Murphy

Yeah. Yes.

Robyne Calvert

One of the reasons why the the chapter that’s kind of about the building itself and and its kinda trip around the building, I called a plain building because that is what they asked for, a plain building. Yes. And in some ways, like you say, what they got in comparison to a lot of the rest of Glasgow, as we know, is not they’re not plain buildings at all. But No. This point is really, really interesting to me, and, like, I think we’ve probably talked about this before.

There’s a project there much like Mackintosh architecture because, see, all these people who were working there were also doing the glass on, like, Clyde Bank or any salmon building Yep. Or, like, it’s because it looks really different, you don’t think of it. But they’re the same makers. They’re the same people Yeah. Working on the buildings.

And it would be so interesting to pick that apart a bit more and, you know, see who these people are. I wish I wish we could know more, and you are, you know, an amazing expert on Yeah. All the buildings that I’m not.

Niall Murphy

There’s still tons I don’t know and I’m kind of trying to figure out at times, and, there was a really good, and I don’t know what happened to it, project that was looking at Wylie and Lochead’s production, which I thought would also be an interesting part of that too because, obviously, similar craftsmen must have been involved in all of that, because, you know, you’re creating these fantastic interiors all a number of of of which were Glasgow style interiors, which end up getting scattered all over the UK all from this one department store because that was was what you could do. So tracking those down, I know that there is a team who have been looking at that, but I have no idea where they’ve gotten to. And that would be really interesting to kinda bring into that kind of project as well.

Robyne Calvert

No. It definitely would. We need to do this.

Niall Murphy

Well, it’s a it’s yeah. It’s one of these things. It’s like, yeah. It is a labour of love, which is obviously, you know, what what what your book is all about. It’s this biography of a much loved one.

Robyne Calvert

I mean, it was for me, definitely. It was a very well, one of the things about it which, you know, I confessed to a little bit of, I don’t know if it’s nervousness but, you know, you’re trained as a historian to be or at least you used to be trained. Luckily, I think we’re moving away from this a bit, to have to be, you know, critical and unbiased and you know?

Niall Murphy

Mhmm. Mhmm.

Robyne Calvert

And I couldn’t. I could not.

Niall Murphy

I could

Robyne Calvert

not do that. I couldn’t, remove myself from the emotion. And then I decided I shouldn’t because that’s what people feel. That’s why this building that’s why everybody’s angry. There’s a reason.

I mean, you know, the people who are angry Because we loved

Niall Murphy

it. Yeah.

Robyne Calvert

Because you love it. And people all over love it. And it it is a building that engendered in people, and its users, its visitors, an emotional reaction. And, so that’s point one. The other thing too is it’s a bit of a lie that anybody’s a biased and unbiased, writer anyway.

Even our driest, strictest architectural historians of the past had a view and an agenda and a bias.

Niall Murphy

Of of course. Of course. Absolutely. When once you’re involved in it, you can’t divorce yourself from that. You’re never going to be a completely neutral observer.

You just can’t do it.

Robyne Calvert

And I felt it was really important to try to I mean, you know, there’s only so much you can do, and there’s so much not that I think I haven’t been able to do reasonably. But I really wanted to, you know, well, one, update the building update the story of the building. And not just update it with fires

and things, but update it from drawing on the knowledge we learned about it from the project and and thoughts that people had about it and discoveries that they made. And some some are my own observations about things. Some of them are, are definitely other people’s observations and thoughts about them.

So I thought that, one, was the important thing to do. Two, tell these stories about you know, let other people’s voices come through who’ve been users in the building. And some of them come through as direct quotes. I interviewed a lot of people. I got a lot of oral histories from people.

Niall Murphy

Mhmm.

Robyne Calvert

Mhmm. Some people who, in fact, are no longer with us, like Mark Baines from, you know, our wonderful Mark Baines champion for Thompson. I sat and recorded Mark in the Art club for a couple hours talking about it. Right. Right.

But I don’t see why you couldn’t do what you’ve talked about about making it an it should be an exemplar on how you can reconstruct heritage, but also how you can do it in a sustainable and boy, I hate the term future proof because there’s no such thing. But a way in which, like you say, we need to think about climate and sustainability and all that. And, I mean, it sounds like that’s what they were trying to do. That was part of the brief. It’s a really big ask.

Niall Murphy

Yes. Yeah. But if you think about, you know, how the Art school came about to begin with, about how it’s all part of this kind of reform movement in the UK in order to up our skills base so that we could compete with, you know, rival nations at that time. But just to up the skills base generally, and the you know, what you were getting taught in the art school at that time, it seems to me to be an incredibly good fit with what the Art school should pick up black.

Robyne Calvert

I mean, there’s a they there’s, you know, a huge section of the school that’s all it’s innovation is, you know, there, and and the title, it’s been there for quite a while. So, like, where you know, that should be part of of what’s happening.

Niall Murphy

Okay. Well, the other thing I wanted to talk about was Mackintosh and Margaret Macdonald, and the kind of, you know, the the relationship between the two of them, and the fact that Mackintosh is very unusual in that period in giving credit to, Margaret Macdonald’s influence, and her work too, you know, that that, what what is his his great phrase

Robyne Calvert

You are half if not three quarters in all my architectural work.

Niall Murphy

That’s it. Yep. Uh-huh. Exactly. So, you know, the the kind of the that that clear obvious love that they have for each other and how that impacts in their work.

Do you want to talk about that? I mean, particularly, say, in relation to the Willow Tea Rooms where that’s much more Yes.

Robyne Calvert

Obviously. See, I I do think that she, was incredibly important to his work. And I know some of the criticism around giving her credit was that she’s not an architect. Right? She so how could she have done these things?

But I do think that line is very interesting, and I always like to say the context for that was, you know, a letter he wrote to her, when he was in France. She’s in London. She’s about to be interviewed for an architecture critic, or architectural magazine about his work. And he’s kinda reassuring her that she knows because she’s in it. Right?

So I do think the Willow Tea Room’s a really good example of where you can see her collaborative efforts. You know? And I I think the the when I teach this and the way I talk about it is to, and I literally just did this this morning, have my under students understand the idea around a Gesamtkunstwerk that when you’re making something that is a total work of art, that means that all the elements that you’re contributing to it are working in concert to create a complete work. Mhmm. So if Margaret this is where going way back to the beginning of my gesso panel research.

If Margaret is making these key, objects for spaces that really are kind of keys to unlock narrative themes of the rooms, like at the Willow, the the Willow wood gesso panel, then Yes. Does she not have some kind of, you know, collaborative position within that? But the biggest problem is we just don’t know the answer. So it’s kind of you know, it’s easy to go one way and say, well, Mackintosh is the architect, so he was in charge of everything. He came up with the theme.

He basically just told her to make a willowood panel on the theme of willowood just like he told the joiners to make these silver chairs, just like he told the glassmakers to make the bauble, whatever. Like, you can just do he’s the director. They’re all the the the orchestra members. Or you can say, actually, it’s a bit more complicated because the conversation we were having earlier about the trust that happens between your maker and the conversations that you have and how things actually come to fruition and look, that’s a bit more complicated. You know?

And that’s very true. So then if you add a layer of this is your intimate creative partner, we have no idea. You know, no idea. So I think it’s I’ve always found it an interesting problem to which there’s no real answer, but I definitely don’t think the answer is she had nothing to do with it.

Niall Murphy

Yeah. I come completely with you on that one, because I do I think that that, you know, when you when you look at his work kinda before and then after when she starts, you know, when they start having a relationship and that builds over time, I think that she does drive them on to the next level.

Robyne Calvert

I think they drive each other on, actually, for sure. Yeah. I think, you know, there’s ideas that I think come from, the immortals, the group of women that she’s working with. I think the magazines are really interesting, that that that sort of collective work there they they make together that’s full of poems and stories and fairy tales. I definitely think there’s a lot there.

And and and, yeah, I do think that the work that that she makes for his spaces is is amongst her best as well. But it’s it’s just so hard to pick apart. I mean, obviously, I’m a huge, like, Margaret. But I also wanna do it with balance. You know what I like, I feel like there’s a responsibility to do it with balance because it is true.

She didn’t know how to design rooms. She wasn’t an architect. But ideas are complicated things. And I you know, as somebody myself who’s worked creatively with with a partner, you know, it’s it’s such a joy to be able to do that, to work Mhmm. To build something creative with somebody that you love is

Niall Murphy

Yeah. And, yeah, to that that degree of trust. Yes.

Robyne Calvert

And and I and I I don’t like it when we sort of, I guess, marginalise that as a creative act.

Niall Murphy

Completely agree. It’s like, you know, what happens with Robert Venturi and Denise Gover Great example. Still angers me. But, you know, like, how how could you be excluded from the Pritzker offense?

Robyne Calvert

Not on. Exactly. I mean, and the whole business long

Niall Murphy

of when this happens. Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. Okay. Right.

Moving on to our final question then, which is the one that we ask everyone, and it’s the loaded question. What is your favorite building in Glasgow, Mackintosh or not, and what would it tell you if it’s walls could talk? No.

Robyne Calvert

Stay out of the attic.

Niall Murphy

I love it when it puts people on the spot.

Robyne Calvert

In Glasgow.

Niall Murphy

Yes. Yeah.

Robyne Calvert

I mean, it does have to be the Mack, doesn’t it? It it just does. Like, I’m I don’t want it to be. I really want to pick something else. Mhmm.

But that’s just stupid. That would be just a a big lie. And I love there’s so many buildings to choose from. I mean, I I love I really hope somebody’s staying in the lion chambers here and talking about it. It’s but

Niall Murphy

Great. Great. Great building. I’m I mostly keep landing on Central Station just because I like the big space. So I don’t a lot

Robyne Calvert

to say.

Niall Murphy

I mean,

Robyne Calvert

there’s, you know, there’s the Willow, but, I mean, there’s also I mean, I love the Scott bill. I mean, there are it does go on and on. And, oh my gosh. Like

Niall Murphy

I know. I know. I know. See, that’s I could change every 5 weeks. Yeah.

Robyne Calvert

There’s so many.

Niall Murphy

There’s so many that I think I really like to do.

Robyne Calvert

So many. Okay. So I’ll say the . I will say The Mack. And if it could

Niall Murphy

Yeah. And for me, it was a toss-up between the west elevation of the The Mack and Central Station, just because that is kind of great

Robyne Calvert

social space. Saying. Okay. Well, do you know what? I will

Niall Murphy

West elevation of The Mack

Robyne Calvert

Do you know what? That’s so funny. I’m gonna go I’m gonna go team east elevation. Yeah. I I absolutely adore the east elevation. It’s so eclectic. It’s got all those amazing little windows.

Niall Murphy

It is. It is. Yeah. Bits of Bosia.

Robyne Calvert

And Yep. And so

Niall Murphy

He’s a magpie.

Robyne Calvert

Magpie. Okay. So here, let me answer your question properly. It is the Mack and what it would say is ‘I’ll be back.’ No don’t. I can’t. III guess I guess it would just be, it is I think it is an ‘I’m still here’, actually, ‘I’m still here’.

Niall Murphy

Yes. Yeah.

Robyne Calvert

Absolutely. Kind of, I guess, the mess spoiler the message at the end of what I write because I there’s a photo that I took. There’s a place I’m giving away the end of the book. There’s a place where you can stand on the stairwell going to the sub basement and and it’s like you’re still in the building. It’s still there.

It’s still there. It’s and I Yeah. I imagine it like a phantom, actually, if I’m honest.

Niall Murphy

Yeah. Yeah. A ghost building. Yeah.

Robyne Calvert

Yes. So that’s I’ll go with it. Why not?

Niall Murphy

That’s a lovely moment. Thank you, Robyne. That was very very much appreciated. It’s been a real pleasure talking to you.

Robyne Calvert

It’s been delightful talking to you. We’ve got projects to do.

Niall Murphy

We do, indeed.

Katharine Neil

Glasgow City Heritage Trust is an independent charity and grant funder that promotes the understanding, appreciation, and conservation of Glasgow’s historic built environment. Do you want to know more? Have a look at our website atglasgowheritage.org.uk and follow us on social media at Glasgow Heritage. This podcast was produced by Inner Ear for Glasgow City Heritage Trust and is sponsored by Tunnock’s.

Professor David Archibald

Our history is an unfinished history. It’s a messy history. It smells of the inside of a recording studio. It smells of black vinyl. It smells of screen printing.

We make this history together as much as we hope to make a future together. So please welcome to the stage the Tenementals.

Niall Murphy

Hello, everyone, and welcome to If Glasgow’s Walls Could Talk. I’m Niall Murphy.

Fay Young

And I’m Fay Young.

Niall Murphy

So for today’s episode of the podcast, we’re gonna ask the question, can a rock band make history? Not pop history. We’re talking history with a capital H, liberated from books, history told, and made in song. So today’s guest is going to take myself and Fay on a rousingly radical route through the radical history of her radical city. So we usually start by asking guests to tell us a bit about themselves and how they came to be doing what they are doing. So professor David Archibald disarmingly takes a different approach. So the professor of political cinemas at Glasgow University is a founding member and front man of the Tenementals, and he wants to start with a band that is setting out to make history.

So over to you, David.

Professor David Archibald

Well, the Tenementals is what I would call a wild research project. It’s wild because it needs to run to the logic of a band rather than run to the logic of an academic research project, which has its own you know, has to operate within its own kind of logics and regulatory frameworks. So the Tenementals, the main thing that the tenementals are involved in just now is trying to work out whether a band or a a group of musicians could tell a history of a city. And if they could tell the history of a city, what would it sound like? What would it look like? And what would it feel like?

So they’re interested in constructing what I would call a transmedia history of a city, So the history that we would create and that we’re in the process of creating is a history in song, but it’s a history also in perhaps the way that we may write about the song of the songs or the way that we might write about ourselves. Or, in fact, this podcast, I would I would suggest, is a part of that history. The the way that we create artworks which reflect the work that we are doing, artworks which, you know, we might use to promote our work, covers for singles and so on, And those artworks are often in conversation with artworks from previous radical movements, whether it be in this country or elsewhere. And and, also, just the the band’s, ephemera, you know, and what we the things that we might say about ourselves on social media.

And we create an audiovisual archive of our work. At some point, we might make a film about the Tenementals. So all of these things together, we hope that we are creating some kind of very messy transmedia history of a city. Now people might argue, and some historians might look at popular song and and recognise that, you know, some versions of popular culture might be places in which history might be produced. Most academic, or perhaps an understanding of history might be that it’s what historians make when they go to work.

And when they go to work, they produce products or outputs, which are primarily, you know, essays between 6, 8000 words or monographs, singular, books that are, you know, shaped between 60, 80, 000 words. And now they might look at, other forms of popular history. They might look at, you know, music or songs about events and and and accept that perhaps that could be a history too. But I think we wanna flip that around and say, can the historians make music? Can the academics make a history which would be fundamentally different in form to the form that is the, the dominant one.

And and that’s quite that’s not just a that’s quite a fundamental question about you know, from an academic with my super academic head on, that’s a question about the ontology of epistemology, which means, in in shorthand, what does knowledge look like? You know, what what does what does knowledge production look like? Yes. Why is it that history has a certain shape? And why is it in certain cultures that history may have a certain shape in a certain period, and in other cultures, it may be different?

The the canonical great book of the Haitian Revolution by C.L.R James, the black Jacobeans, started its life not as a history book, but as a play, as a drama. And it was staged in in in the it was staged in the West End, in the West End of London. Right.

But if we look at academic history and and, you know, in in the West, it tends to have followed the scientific model, dom that that where where writing dominates. And other forms of knowledge production, other forms of making history have been, have been rubbed out. You know, it’s what some academics might call epistemicide. Different ways of knowing are privileged over other way ways of of of knowing. And I mean, another example is, Lynton Quaysay Johnson.

When I was a a youngster, I listened to the music of Linton Kwesi Johnson. And in the mid eighties, he actually made an album called Making History. And he talks about how as a as a as a poet and as a as a as a singer, he was writing the history of his community. So we’re interested in in in looking at popular forms and and forms of history production, which might be from the groups minoritised or oppressed groups or oppressed ways of making popular culture, working class culture, and then saying, but can we flip that around and put that with an academic setting? And then I suppose what we’re interested in saying then, if we do that, what would be won and what would be lost?

You know, I read books. I read 60,000 words academic essays. There’s considerable value in them. We’re not jettisoning existing forms of history production, but we’re interested in in exploring, if we bring something else to the table, what would we be bringing to the table? And I suppose, fundamentally, what we’re asking there is a question which is, what can art do?

What can art do to create forms of knowledge and forms of understanding? So the Tenemental’s history of the city of Glasgow, it’s not about reaching audiences. It’s not about, so that we can engage with people that don’t read books. It’s That may that may happen, and that would be good if it happened. But that’s not the primary question.

The primary question is to explore, actually what history is and what art can do Mhmm. In the making of history. Mhmm.

Niall Murphy

Mhmm. That’s really fascinating. I suppose think about it, it’s like the fact that you’re doing this in song is quite interesting too in a way of being able to convey ideas and then making sure they’re lodged in people’s memory. You know, thinking about back over kind of, you know, anybody’s life, you can remember things like, you know, here in the other day, a human league song. And, suddenly suddenly being back in the 1980s and remembering exactly where I was and what was going on at that time, and, you know, the whole message of that song kind of releases all of these other memories and associations about something, I think is a really interesting it’s a it’s a really interesting way of conveying something.

Fay Young

Yes. And and the song itself is more easily remembered than words in a book.

Professor David Archibald

Yes. Uh-huh. Yes. So that’s the songs so we wrote a song about Fossil Grove. We think maybe the first song about Fossil Grove.

And I just got I just remember getting taken to Fossil Grove when I was a a kid and being totally, you know, blown away by the concept of Mhmm. You know, these kinda these trees, you know, the monumentalised trees

Fay Young

Yes.

Professor David Archibald

And trying to get my head around concepts of, you know, fundamentally questions about deep time. Yeah. So an entirely different way of thinking about you know, history is often thought about just in terms of the things that men men and women do. But if we think about history in relation to the processes of time and the and the non-human so we’ve got a little simple song, which is really just about a child being can been having their mind expanded by an an an engagement with, you know, concepts of time Yeah. In in Fossil Grove and and White Inch Park.

So in that sense, what that song does, it ties together the auto with the theoretical a little bit by kinda engaging with questions about time and how does and how does time operate and work and how may a child understand it. So you’ve got a song like Fossil Grove, or then we’ve written a song called Universal Alienation just to jump ship a little bit. So Universal Alienation riffs off Jimmy Reid’s very famous, speech to alienation speech in 1972 when he was elected as the director of the University of Glasgow. I mean, on the back of it is the role that he played in the occupation of the the shipyards, and the Clyde in, you know, in 1971 when the workers were involved in taking over the yards and running the yards in an attempt to stave off their closure and, you know, relatively successful in in in its time. And Reid became a world famous figure.

He was on Parkinson. And,

Niall Murphy

Yeah. Fantastic.

Professor David Archibald

And so he became a famous, trade union figure, rightly so. And he was, a fantastic orator, self taught. Fantastic orator. And he makes a magnificent speech in the in the in the Bute halls, the University of Glasgow, about alienation and about the rat race and about why people should not just, you know, get drawn into the kinda, you know, chasing chasing every little thing that’s thrown in in ahead of you. The compromises that you might make before you know before you know it.

As Reid says, you’re a fully paid up member of the Rat race. And Yeah. I mean, I’ve worked in the I’ve been worked in the university for a long time, and I think that when Reid made that speech, perhaps people wouldn’t have thought that Reid was talking about working conditions inside the university, not just the University of Glasgow, but higher education generally, which I think for many people might be regarded as a much, you know, much more relaxed, working environment. But in the reality, in the last few decades then, you know, all the issues about alienation that Reid was talking about are certainly applicable in, in in higher education generally. So we’ve updated that song called the universal alienation.

But, also, there’s a line or 2 in it about Jimmy Reid and the miner’s strike because when I was a kid, I worked in John Brown’s. And I was at you know, I was a big trade union activist, and I was collecting the money for the miners. And I used to go around, and I was in charge. I was in what was called a union called AUW Task, which was the white collar workers’ section of the engineering union. And I had raised the idea of the levy, so I was gonna get charged for collecting it.

And so every every steward had to collect a pound a week from their group, and then they would give it to me. And then I had to go and persuade all the people that didn’t want to pay it, on a Monday morning that they had to give me the pound.

Fay Young

How old were you?

Professor David Archibald

I was a wee boy. I mean, I was, like, 20 I was 90 in 84/85, yeah, I was 20. You know, I was 20, but I was I had all the energy that maybe Reid would have had when he when he was 20. You know? And, the tournament was I’m not interested in simplistic histories.

You know? We’re interested in the the messy past. If the if the history itself that we make is gonna be quite messy, then we’re also interested in the complexities of the past. My views haven’t changed, but my capacity for arguing has been tempered a little bit, you know, and a more greater capacity to see the other the other side of things.

Yeah. But but my fundamental views actually haven’t changed.

Fay Young

So you you listen to what others are saying as as well as formulating your own response. Do you listen first? And does it change your mind ever?

Professor David Archibald

Yes. I mean, yes. One of the great things about being a teacher is about how much you learn by reading other people’s writing Mhmm. And, and and and and analysing how they are how they make an argument and looking for the evidence that they put in their argument. And and often it’s often the case that young, opinionated people write really strong arguments with sometimes little evidence.

So by spending a lot of time looking at writing, that’s been a very good thing for me. And when I was doing my PhD, I did a PhD on the Spanish Civil War in cinema, and I I published a book on that afterwards. And but when I was doing my PhD, I I had this great, great job where I went to schools and specific postcodes in Glasgow that were identified as, you know, low in low, intake areas for the universities.

 

Professor David Archibald

I did this, bridging course for the 5th and 6th years, they might be where they are and how they might get to university. And the university had just introduced that course that that whole program, and I was in the first year of it. So they spent a lot of time training us, about working with young people and study. And and I learned so much doing that, and I learned much.

Niall Murphy

That must be an absolute fascinating.

Professor David Archibald

Absolutely. To go back to the to they were kids. You know, students university students aren’t kids all. But, of course, but but school students. So I learned so much.

I remember, you know, some of the things that you take, but in the universities and about possibilities and about speaking to kids from working class areas about class in a in a different way. And it’s about whether you talk to them about how class delimits what they the position that they’re in, which it absolutely does.

Niall Murphy

Totally

Professor David Archibald

Same time, giving them the power to talk about what they can do. And that and I learned a lot about that. I learned a lot about that from working with the from working with the kids. I spent a fair bit of time in Castlemilk.

Fay Young

Just going to ask if you had helped people over the bridge, you know, if if some of the kids that you were speaking to, if they went on into higher education.

Professor David Archibald

Oh, many many of them would, but, I mean, this is 1999. I started doing that, so they some of them will be coming up for retirement. But, no, that was that that was a while ago. But, sure, definitely. Definitely.

We had a great affinity with some children in in in Castlemilk, but I don’t I’ve I’ve got no idea what they’re what they’re doing now. And I and I I think like a lot, you know, like a lot of academics from working class backgrounds, then I don’t know if it’s a responsibility, but they certainly spend a lot of time in working class areas. And, I mean, local history is a very powerful educational force, you know, to because it makes a very specific connection. Mhmm. You know, it makes a connection with with you and the people that walked on the ground that you walked in Mhmm.

You know, 10 years ago or a 1000 years ago. And it really helps, I think, for people to conceptualize time

Fay Young

Yes.

Professor David Archibald

And the and the and the passing of generations and and and where they may stand in relation to that and that people are gonna come after them and so on. So there’s nothing parochial or narrow minded about local history.

Fay Young

No. And as as you say, song is such a powerful way of keeping it alive because the way cities are now, streets get demolished. Well, certainly buildings get demolished, but sometimes whole streets get dug up. So locating yourself in the place isn’t always the most useful thing to do, but the song can keep those echoes vibrating or reverberating. Yeah.

I’d love to hear more about the songwriting. And when we spoke earlier David you gave a really lovely description which reminds me of a lot of you know sort of Simon and Garfunkel writing process. But perhaps it we would need to meet your band first before that story makes a bit more sense, your co-writer, for example?

Professor David Archibald

So the band is, myself and Simon. Simon Whittle is the guitarist. Simon also does all the design work. He’s a he designs all their artwork, and and and, you know, I’m biased, but the the work he does is really fantastic. And Simon’s a punk.

He’s, he’s Carlisle’s greatest punk, punk rocker. But he lives in Ibrox now, and he’s, well, he’s been in Glasgow for a long time. And, and he’s and he’s a great guitarist, and he’s got the capacity to write these really beautiful little kind of riffs and guitar moments. And so so me and Simon write the songs in the main meeting, and these songs start with an idea. You know, they start with an idea.

So they don’t they tend not to start with a piece of music, but they start with an idea. So like, you know, Fossil Grove, you know, we’ve got that idea, or or Passion Flowers Lament is, you know, the the the song about the statue on the, on the backs of the Clyde.

The Tenementals (clip of Passion Flowers Lament)

I stand here eternal, fists clenched to the sky as reaching for futures, not pasts of the night. My soul is scarred by memories of hearts broken and flowers crushed in the darkened shadows of Castell de Fells. Where secret but the silence of these betrayals eases the burden you must bear.

Professor David Archibald

So they they usually start with an idea, or they always start with an idea, and and, usually, I overwrite some lyrics, and I’ve got some lyrics with too usually far too many and probably not in very good shape. And I and I I don’t really know what the song sounds like. I maybe have a sense of whether it’s soft or you know, but not really. And then Simon comes over.

He comes over to my house. We have we drink a bottle of wine, and we and, like, in half an hour, or or, well, within the with with the time the wine’s drunk, then we got something, which we think is brilliant. And then we usually go to the Arlington bar and drink another couple of pints and go home. And then the next morning, the song is not as good as we thought it was, but it’s enough for us to build on.

Fay Young

Right.

Professor David Archibald

And it usually takes us three if we had a budget for each song, it would be three bottles of wine. But maybe we would take three maybe we would take about three goes at creating the song before we would then have it. And in the meantime, what we would do is I would I would then kind of rearrange the shape, the structure, the lyrics. Simon would develop the music a little bit more, and then we would come back together. And so that’s that’s generally the the way we would write the song.

And then we would take it into the the studio. And then everybody builds on builds to create the version of this the the initial song that will be that will be released or that that will be that will be created. And that and that’s a really beautiful process. We recorded a song, just a one off song with Monica Queen, who’s a very celebrated, voice, you know, really a really unique, absolutely unique singer. And, and we brought we brought out a song called Te Recuerdo Amanda, which is by the Chilean singer and poet, Victor Jara.

And and we did that because we were doing a gig in Saint Luke’s, and we were doing it the day before the 50th anniversary of the the day when Victor Jara’s body was found after he had been arrested in the aftermath of the coup in Chile in 1973 when a right wing military dictatorship overthrew a democratically elected government took him to this, football stadium, broke his fingers, shot him dead, and dumped his body in the street. And, you know, it was what I loved about that when we recorded that, it’s been played a few times on the radio, but it was played in Govan Community Radio, Sunny Govan Radio.

And we wrote a little bit of a press release, and the, the person who was I think it was Daffy’s name. I don’t know him, but he he was talking about the song. And he was you know, maybe called some of the stuff from the press release that we had put out, but he’d he’d done his own work as well, and he talked about about that. And what I loved about that is that that song was gone out in Spanish because we sang it we recorded it, and Monica sang it in Spanish.

And that song went out in in kind of working class areas in in in the city, a song which was entirely new because Yeah. I think if you if you’re gonna record a song, a a cover of a song, that’s you know, it’s nice if you can do something new with it, but, actually, to to record that song and to put it in kinda Scottish working class areas, a song about what Daffy said is they killed him. I’m paraphrasing, but he said they killed them because of the power of his music. And I thought, no. That’s really lovely.

It’s true. Absolutely. Absolutely spot on. So I was really it made it made my heart swell to hear local radio DJs playing, you know, songs that the Tenementals are are are bringing out in Spanish. You know, there’s not many Spanish tracks on Scottish radio these days, understandably.

But we thought there was an element of solidarity attached to to doing it, and that and Monica sang it so beautifully. I mean, it was just amazing when she when she sang it at at Saint Luke’s.

Niall Murphy

I saw that performance. It was wonderful.

Professor David Archibald

I mean, it was stunning.

Niall Murphy

Mhmm. It really was. It was a great performance.

Fay Young

And, of course, you’ve got the German song as well, haven’t you?

Niall Murphy

Yeah. The Peat Bog Soldiers.

Professor David Archibald

Yes. I mean, this is a way in which the the band operates not as an academic project. Because an an academic project would arrive, and it would have probably an agenda, a problem to solve, maybe a research question, and it would have a maybe a time frame in which to do that. Whereas the Tenementals have, you know, a small foot in the university and then a big foot in the music scene in the city, And that means that we operate on the logics, not of an academic research project, but on the logics of a band so that we have to go not where the academics want to go, but we have to go where the band needs to go. Yeah.

So if a band’s playing a gig, we then it follows not with the academic side, but it follows what the band needs and what the gig needs. When we were doing a a striker’s benefit gig in January, early February 2023 in the Admiral downstairs in the admiral, Every time you do a gig, you might be trying to do another song just to to to do something different. And on that night, we came up with the idea of doing a song called peat bog soldiers, which, emerged from a conversation that I had with a filmmaker friend of mine filmmaker academic friend of mine called Holger Mohaupt, who lives in North Berwick and teaches in Liverpool. And I’ve been doing some work with a colleague in Catalonia about the Spanish civil war and and sights of memory. And we’d filmed a few things, and we were looking to put some music or some old music that we could get, copyright clearance to use.

And I had been I was speaking to Holger about this German song that was about the Spanish Civil War. And he says, well, you know, die moorsoldaten Black Soldiers. And I I said, I don’t really know. He said, that was a big song in Germany. He said, he calls me Dave.

He’s like, Dave, it’s the big song when you’re a teenager on the on the demos. It’s the big song. And I didn’t really know it. And then I read a little bit about it, and it had been sung. It had been recorded by, you know, Pete Seeger and recorded by Paul Robson and Mhmm.

Many covers of it, protest covers of it, but mostly quite a while back, you know, in terms of it being well known. So I thought, well, let’s let’s do that. And then I had heard Holger’s daughter, Lily, who’s, you know, Scottish but has been speaking German for for for a fair bit. So German is, is pretty good. And, I had heard her singing on some, some of Holger’s films, and I knew she had a beautiful voice.

She was, you know, maybe 18 at the time. So she sang it. Did she just pitch up on the night? Or maybe we had one rehearsal the night before. And it was just beautiful.

And because it was first performed on the 27th August, 1933, in Borghamur concentration camp by for A camp for left wing political prisoners. It’s not overtly political. Well, it it completely is, but the words are, you know, the words it’s about mask. The protest is about, you know, is is not in your face. So the reason that it became a big song in the Spanish Civil War is because a lot of the German members of the communist party and the left leftist generally, because fascism because Hitler had come to power in 1933, Spanish Civil War breaks out in 1936.

The German Communist Party actually instructed all their members with military service to experience to go and fight in Spain. So there was a lot of Germans in Spain. And they brought with them this great song, Die Moorsoldaten which is to a kind of to a marching beat. So it became a big song in the Spanish Civil War. So the versions of it are a little bit beaty and, you know, meaty and militaristic, and then mostly sung by men.

So to put a young woman, a young female teenager, in the in the lead of that, it was, you know again, it’s just trying to make a new song in some ways. And that was just so lovely. She sang it so lovely, and then we recorded 2 versions of it. There’s a 6 length a 6 verse version, which is, you know, very, very rarely performed. But we just recorded the that in in the entirety.

And then we we did a kinda new translation of a a three verse, and then we sang one verse in German, one in English, one in German, one in English, one in German, one in English, one in German, one in English. Again, so to try and make a kinda new song, and, and she just sings that so beautifully. And then and then you and then you just put it out there, and you you hope some you hope It’s hard it’s hard making music. There’s so many it’s amazing because there’s there’s so much music out there. That’s good that there’s a lot of music being made, but it’s actually hard getting the attention, getting people’s ears.

So you just have to put your put your music out there and then hope that it finds the right ears, I suppose. And what happened with that song is just out of the blue, I got an email from the the former archivists who deal with the the concentration camps in Borgenborough in that area. And and they I mean, they just said some really beautiful words. And they said also that they wanted to archive the song, the materials related to the song in an archive. They’ve got a special archive just about that song, Daimler sold that and Peat Bog soldiers.

So we were we had some conversations with them, and we and we’ve we’ve we’ve sent some materials there already. We’ve sent, you know, we’ve sent, a CD and some other materials, and we’ve got we’re sending them some more materials related to that, some a DVD and so so that was just so incredibly moving. Mhmm. I mean, that was, you know, that that was moving. You hope that I don’t know.

If you’re a band and you bring out a track, then you hope that, you know, someone might write some nice words about it, you know, because that helps spread the word. Mhmm. So so to get some to get some words from to get some kind words from the archivists in the concentration camp was just extraordinary.

Niall Murphy

It is. It’s com completely fascinating. By complete coincidence, I was reading Hans Follada’s diary, kind of that period. Just we can’t complete coincidence I hadn’t come across this article then. And, yeah, it’s the the night of the burning down of the Reichstag .

Fay Young

Yeah.

Niall Murphy

And they know, you know, what’s gonna come. And it’s just that whole period is just so fascinating and horrific. And, yeah, to hear that in that song.

Professor David Archibald:

Yes. Uh-huh. It’s hard to imagine these things.

You know, I think maybe maybe what art can do is that maybe art can, I think, begin to help us understand the things that just the the written word cannot, actually? So, maybe Art can help us understand emotions.

Niall Murphy

Oh, definitely. Absolutely. In, Cabaret when the the the future belongs to me, that song. And in the film, when you see them and they they’re dawning a realisation, this is what’s happening, and everybody joins in eventually. It’s this terrifying moment.

Professor David Archibald

Yes. Exactly. So so art, song, painting, you know, they they can do they can create another form of, knowledge, experience, about the past.

Fay Young

I mean, in in the article that Niall referred to that was published in The Conversation, you talk about looking for hope in the work that you’re doing in in the the radical histories, but also talking about the future. And that’s what the songs are doing, drawing on, recreating the radical history for now, for our understanding now. And does it help us, especially in The Passion Flowers Lament, where you talk about the fascist boots marching again and we have to learn from what happened before to be alert to what could happen again, what is already happening in some places. So it’s sorry to repeat, you know, to just to get a sense of whether you feel there is hope, in in or are you finding hope as as you work on this radical route?

Professor David Archibald

I think that, there’s a fantastic phrase that was developed in the in the aftermath of the Paris Commune about, you know, the defeat of workers, movements, and someone coined the phrase the great federation of sorrows Mhmm. Which is beautiful. The great federation of sorrows. But one of the things that we’re interested in is the capacity of art and culture to be points of opposition and to point towards possibilities even in moments when it seems absolutely impossible.

Fay Young

Mhmm. Mhmm.

Professor David Archibald

Peat Bogs soldiers is a great example of, you know, workers coming together group of workers coming together to sing in the face of a cataclysmic thing that’s coming in their direction, which they probably can’t even begin to comprehend Yeah. The thing that’s happening to them. Art shows you that in times like that, they they create possibilities when other things are forced down. Mhmm. So that’s one thing.

The second thing, I think, is that there are moments when it appears that there cannot be any hope because the thing that you’re facing is is so, is so overwhelming. And, I mean, the new director at the University of Glasgow made you know, it’s controversial that he’s been elected. 80% of the students have voted for Abu-Sittah . And he made a really interesting point in his speech last week, and he said, I’m paraphrasing, but that’s not a quote. But he says, never would one have imagined that in 1987, when this the University of Glasgow Students elected Winnie Mandela to be the rector of the university.

No 1 could have envisaged that in a generation further down the line, multiracial or a non apartheid South Africa would charge Israel with genocide at the at the International Court of Justice. There’s a lot in there. You know? And the the point I’m pulling out from that is that I remember that period of of apartheid in the 1980s. You know, I got arrested in Benneton’s or Gail Street amongst other things for occupying it.

But at that at that at that point, apartheid seemed impregnable. You know, in in the mid 1980s , it’s it it it did not seem that, you know, a kind of emancipate black emancipation or movement against the white state was was possible. We would go to see all these films which finished with I can’t remember the what what film. We’d finished with a list of all the the black men killed in prison, how they slipped on a bar of soap or, you know, all these pathetic excuses. And if you were black and you were in a township in South Africa in the mid 1980s , it must have felt, you know, where on earth is the hope here?

But, actually and and that’s when I I was in a little choir called the Moses Mayekiso choir. Moses Mayekiso was a he was the leader of the, metal workers union, and someone I knew had come back from South Africa with a tape of trade union workers’ songs, and we sang them probably very badly. But we used to sing them we used to sing them in the streets. So people have always used art and culture as vehicles for maintaining some kind of possibility, if art if maybe art can do that, can maintain some kind of possibility, and also conjure a new world. I an idea of a new world when the beyond the idea that the current world seems the only one that’s there.

It’s impossible to see anything else other than the overwhelming size of your oppression. And I think that you know, I was a socialist. I was a young socialist when I was a teenager. I’m I’m an old socialist now. But at the the the fundamental ideas that I’ve that I’ve that people told me when I was young, They said to me when I was younger, well, you’ll grow out of that.

You know, you’ll you’ll grow up, and you’ll realize how the world works, etcetera, etcetera. And I haven’t actually, I haven’t, and, actually, everything that I’ve and and when I was young, I thought it was I thought it would be better if socialism was the way that the world was organized. I thought it would be better. It would be fairer. But now, actually, I think that, and I think this is a reasonable, by an analysis of the evidence, conclusion to draw, that if capitalism continues, it’s quite difficult, I think, to see how the end of the planet or a planet which is not massively impacted negatively colossally by climate change the in the newspaper.

So for me and, of course, I’m in, like, a minority, a very, very small minority of academics who would stand up and say, I’m a socialist, and argue for socialist ideas. And in the academy, a lot of people might say things like, well, we may have to imagine worlds where we may live together differently. We may breathe together differently. I mean or they may talk about post capitalist futures. I’m I’m not afraid to name the tenemental’s object of desire, which is, you know, a socialist world Mhmm.

And, and to campaign for that. Now I’m a teacher. I’m at the university. It’s not my job in the university to propagandize for a certain set of values, And I don’t do that, apart from anyone else that’s extremely conservative, to think that you can just, you know, communicate your own ideas to other people and that they’ll gonna be 1 we won over 2 of them. Your job as a teacher in the university is to to create as much capacity for critical thinking.

Yeah. Yes. So, actually, the first thing, if your student if your students reject what you said but reject it with a, you know, a good argument, then that’s that’s an a. You know, that’s that’s that’s totally fine. So it’s not about my role in the university in terms of socialism, but and and I think that perhaps at the moment when it seems least likely you know, there’s not that many there’s not a big massive movement for socialist change in Britain at the minute, to say the least.

But I think what is least likely, then that’s actually the moment when you have to say that it’s necessary. Yeah. And if you restrict yourself to what is possible, then if we look at all these things that have happened in the past, they would never have taken place. They would never have taken place. It would never have seemed possible to overthrow Ceaușescu in Romania or the apartheid state for some people in in in in the eighties.

Change always looks impossible until it happens. And then it looks as if, of course of course, it had to happen. Of course, it had to happen. So we are not afraid to say that we’re in in favor of absolute, fundamental change in favor of working people.

Niall Murphy

Fascinating point. This is, yeah, a bit of a sidetrack. I was on an Erasmus architectural summer school, which was in the USSR just before the coup. That that was fascinating because you had no idea that this kind of really major moment in history was about to happen. And then in hindsight but when you piece it all together and it’s like makes complete sense.

And it was just like we we were so kind of oblivious to things like all the tanks in the street. And you were like, well, that must be what the USSR always does. But it wasn’t because they were all gathering for the coup. And, you know, you had no idea. But it was it was fascinating to think that was all going on at the same time.

Professor David Archibald

No. I think these things are they’re always connected, history and hope. You know, they’re connected. And Mhmm. Is it Seamus Heaney who uses the saying, you know, when when hope and history rhyme?

And I think, you know, I’m sort of interested in that line. You know? And I do think I’m sort of old fashioned in a certain sense. It’s not that history predicts the future or, you know, or that we could learn the lessons from history, and then that means we won’t make the make the mistakes again. I don’t think that that’s the the case.

But I think that we can be inspired by moments of possibility in the past. And I think that the wealthy know that because they they always, always repress the memories of absolute revolutionary changes. When Mhmm. So the Paris Commune 1871, a big attempt to erase that the the the whole memory of that in French in French education and French popular culture. So these moments of actual when workers actually took control of things, The Spanish revolution, 1937 Mhmm.

1936, rather. You know, Spanish Civil War gets a bit messy, and that’s some of the stuff that we talk about and ends in, of course, terrible defeat for the for the for the workers and the peasants. And, you know, Franco’s probably not a fascist, but certainly aligns with the fascists and stays in power until 1975. That’s a major, major a major, major defeat. To return to that question a phrase I said earlier on, the left always tends to talk about the great federation of sorrows.

Why did we lose? Who killed him? He betrayed him. We are interested in that, but we’re interested in finding moments of possibility and blasting them into the future. These moments when things did happen, when things when things changed, even if momentarily, they create another they they create another option. If it happened once, it can happen again. Yeah. And that’s why revolutionary histories are often are often repressed by the powers that be, the powers that be that are above them.

So it’s those moments of possibility. Whether that be international revolution, these grand things, or even that small thing like the poll tax. You know, the poll tax. Yeah. As I was on a I was on a radio, they they they I felt quite old.

They got a lot of the oldies back to talk

Fay Young

Absolutely.

Professor David Archibald

The first poll tax demonstration that took place in 1989.

Niall Murphy

I remember all of that. I was there I remember going on them. That was fascinating.

Professor David Archibald

They were getting it. And if you didn’t, they were saying, you know, what was it like? And it was quite it was quite weird. I felt I felt very old. But these these moments of of of radical change when people won Yeah.

And they changed history when it seemed like that could not happen. Mhmm. If I understand that history, it helps us do that as well. And that’s that can often be a local thing, you know, teaching, you know, students or learning more about the Chilean revolution or the Paris Commune, the Spanish revolution, how people resisted, Hitler and the Nazis. Great.

That’s good. That’s fantastic. The history of the UCS working, when the when the shipyard workers occupied the yards and helped to stave off the closures, the history of the poll tax campaign, how local communities came together to stop sheriff officers coming into communities to to remove pieces of furniture from people’s houses and to conduct what are, at best, Victorian, Victorian practices. And people stopped that. People stopped that.

Fay Young

And the interesting thing was it wasn’t just it wasn’t first class. It was across a broad community. You had so many different kinds of people working together, learning from each other actually. I remember going to supper parties where, you know, property owning people with, people being evicted from, you know, very different kinds of properties coming together.

Professor David Archibald

Yes. Uh-huh.

Fay Young

And it’s such an essential fundamental thing, security in your own home. That has to be everybody’s right.

Niall Murphy

Yes. Uh-huh. Yes. Yeah. Very very much.

It’s very similar to the rent strike and Mary Barbour and all of that and how that, you know, spread from government all the way across the UK. And that that how terrified the government were of it at that time. Very similar.

Professor David Archibald

What that’s a great example of is this, I think there are these episodes which seem to be historical, and then they get blasted into the present. Yeah. When history and struggle rhymes in a certain sense, and you think, well, what would be the lessons of the 1915 rent strikes? You know, that’s like that’s gone. That’s the last thing that’s something that happened ages ago.

And yet that was a key thing that people talked about during the poll tax campaign. And then about 2 or 3 years ago, just when we were coming out of the lockdown, I got an email from an activist in in, in America who knew about the rent strikes who knew about the red strikes in Glasgow, but what he wanted to know is what the poll tax activists learned from the red strikes activists so that the new generation of rent strikes activists in the United States learned about what they could do. So that’s kind of continuation of struggle, a kind of conversation, a dialogue through time, and then these little moments of of success, of struggle, and how they are kinda passed on, and sometimes in an interrupted way, not in a kinda a kinda continuous way, but how one episode sort of gets taken out and Mhmm. Thrust, you know, thrust forward.

Niall Murphy

It’s really fascinating about how you can work that kind of thread, you know, this great radical history that Glasgow has, and you can work it into your songs. You know, it’s it’s just it’s it yeah. Find that really interesting. Mhmm. So what about the critics?

And what do you think they say about your your stance and how the Tenementals kind of work? And how would you respond to that?

Professor David Archibald

Art creates conversations. It’s the starting point for another way of talking, I think. So, you know, we live in a world dominated by, you know, a corporate media which has specific interests. What art does is it can create a different conversation about something else entirely. And what a band can do is just it can just sidestep the existing conversation, and it can say, this is a song that talks about this.

That’s one of the great things that Art can do. And so we’re interested in in having conversations. You know, we’ve had very favorable press, actually. I mean, there’s been a whole series of articles about the tournamentals and the and the Herald, which has been amazing. It’s been they’ve been very interested in in what we’ve, what we’ve been doing.

I suppose we’ve been engaged with as a concept, you know, primarily as a concept.

Fay Young

Mhmm.

Professor David Archibald

We brought out two singles, and, you know, people don’t really review singles. You know, people would tend unless you look famous, but you’re a big band. But people will review an album. You know? So we’ll get we’ll get some album reviews, and that and then and then and that’ll be amazing.

That’ll be amazing in the sense that, you know, Malcolm McLaren says something late about the Pistols, you know, the trick is the the the Sex Pistols are the concept. You know? Don’t the trick is not to let anybody hear the music, you know, before the before they they brought the they brought the music out. So I don’t care. Maybe some did not.

But, but we, you you know, we’ve had quite a lot. We get quite we’ve had quite a lot of press, and, but we’ve not had a lot of press in the music press. You know? So we’ve actually been we’ve been we’ve been written about as an idea and as a news story, and and and, of course, that’s amazing. Well, there’s been some video plays, but and there’s been some blog in which they which they wrote about.

But we expect that when the album comes out, then that we’ll be written about as a band, which is, of course, if you want to operate as on the logics of a band, then you then you then have to go, you know, Archibald’s lyrics are banal, You know, Ronan Breslin’s keyboard playing as as whatever. You know, you then have to and but that that’s it. That’s good. You know, I’ve I’ve I’ve written a lot of arts arts criticism. So it’d be amazing to wake up read a review of a Tenemental album.

That would that would make my year, probably. So we look forward to that. The songs have to be good enough to carry the concept of can a can a band tell a transmedia history of a city? And I feel very fortunate to have worked together with, you know, such talented people.

Fay Young

Do you think it could influence, conventional history making, the way historians tackle?

Professor David Archibald

I mean, a historian has a very specific skill set, you know. And and in terms of construct and historical outputs, certainly, the conventional history is historian has a their skill set is about writing, what I would maybe call the classic realist text. You know, it’s got a a linear essay, beginning, a middle, and an end, and an argument with footnotes. You know, Dovit, who I was working with, I’ve I haven’t heard him, but, apparently, a very good violinist. We might we might we might work together on an album project.

I don’t know. But I think to explore other forms of history, production poses a fundamental question about what history is, about what historiography is, what is the shape of history of course, that’s I I repeat, but Dauvit Broun is also professor, that Dauvit Broun is also interested in that question of, actually, what is history? What does it what does it feel like? I think the the more people doing that, then then the better, you know, then then the better because I think if you’ve got a greater understanding of the form of what you’re doing, then you’ve, you know, you’ve got a capacity to critique of of of self critique.

Niall Murphy

Okay. This is a a loaded question that we ask everybody who comes on the podcast this. And always very interested to hear what your opinion is on something. So it is, what’s your favourite building in Glasgow, and what would it say if its walls could talk?

Professor David Archibald

If its walls could talk. Oh, well. The I have a long answer and a short answer.

Niall Murphy

Go on

Professor David Archibald

My long ans my long answer would be that the great thing about the city is space, which allows the buildings to be seen. That’s what I love about Glasgow, the the parks, and the buildings that might sit in the parks and the but the walkways. I’ll I walk a lot. I do a lot of thinking and walking.

It’s a methodology, actually, walk walking to and not to think, but just to walk. But, eventually, lot an inordinate amount of time in Glasgow Film Theatre. I mean, I’ve spent a lot of time there as a school student

So I went there for the first time to see Polanski’s Macbeth, nudey Macbeth, as we all called it at the time. I went as a as a Labour movement activist to some of the the May Day screenings that the GFT had. They had films like mate one, John Sale’s film in the in the mid 1980s . I went there as a student all the time when I was a I was a film student, a PhD student. I went there when I was a teacher to teach the the classes in the in the education room.

I’ve introduced scores and scores of films there, and I’ve just did so many amazing viewing experiences there. My tip for audiences is there’s a layout quirk in the seating arrangements, which is that the fourth row in GFT1 has got a little bit more leg room than any other than any other than any So you reckon that one? I recommend that. Yeah. So that’s, that’s my favourite view, viewing position.

But, no, I think that that cinema has got a special place in my heart and this and the city’s heart because it’s a noncommercial cinema, but it it would be it would be the GFT. And if the GFT’s walls could talk, then they would have stories from every country in the world, from every of all the thousands upon thousands upon thousands of films that have been screened there. So that would be a that would be a multicultural, multilingual, conversation about cinema and art and what it can do.

Niall Murphy

Oh, fantastic. Very very good choice. That’s a good choice. Nobody’s nobody’s liked that one before.

Professor David Archibald

Oh, good. No.

Niall Murphy

You’re you’re a first.

Fay Young

Amazing. Yeah. Oh, that was that was terrific.

Niall Murphy

Yeah. Thank you very much, David. That was very very much appreciated. A really really enjoyable conversation.

Fay Young

And to play us out, here are the Tenementals with the Owl of Minerva from David’s Professorial Lecture, which was held at Webster’s Theatre on May Day earlier this year.

Tenementals: She comes to settle on a red wooden roof. She ponders. What will rise from these broken banks of utopia? New future, new presence, or new pasts. And still the river flows.

Professor David Archibald

Thank you, We are the Tenementals . Good night! Okay.

Katharine Neil

Glasgow City Heritage Trust is an independent charity and grant funder that promotes the understanding, appreciation, and conservation of Glasgow’s historic built environment. Do you want to know more? Have a look at our website at glasgowheritage.co.uk and follow us on social media at Glasgow Heritage. This podcast was produced by Inner Ear for Glasgow City Heritage Trust and is sponsored by Tunnocks.

Dr Alasdair Whyte

Was a real motivating factor to kind of change the narrative or to draw attention to another bit of that story. So I think, probably, most listeners will be aware of the huge numbers of Gaelic speakers that were displaced as a result of clearance and emigration. Actually, much earlier than people probably imagine, even going back to the 17th century and before that people come into kind of lowland and Central Scotland for employment. Even before that. Obviously, we have big numbers of Gaelic speakers coming to the Glasgow area in the 19th century, particularly.

And I suppose, yeah, the motivating factor for looking at the place names in part was to maybe move away from the kind of traditional narrative of the poor Gaelic speakers having to come to Glasgow and really struggling to survive in a new place. We really wanted to focus on the fact that Gaelic had been spoken in Glasgow for many centuries before that for lots of different reasons. And, if we’re talking about the medieval place names, the biggest reason there is the fact that Gaelic really was the main language of the community in Glasgow for a significant period of time.

Fay Young

Hello, and welcome to If Glasgow’s Walls Could Talk. I’m Fay Young, the host of today’s episode, which promises tantalising glimpses of Glasgow life a thousand years ago. A study of Gaelic place names created by Gaelic speakers living here in the 10th Century has revealed a green landscape where livestock grazed and crops were grown. There’s even shadowy hints of the men and women living here. So long ago, who knew Gaelic was spoken in medieval Glasgow?

Who knew Shettleston had roots in medieval Gaelic? Well, our guest today knows that, and a great deal more. Alasdair White, Gaelic singer, writer, research fellow in Celtic and Gaelic at the

University of Glasgow, is also co author of the book Glasgow’s Gaelic Place Names, which caused some surprise when it was published last year. Welcome to you, Alasdair. It’s great to have you here.

Perhaps we can just start with you talking about your own Gaelic origins.

Dr Alasdair Whyte

Well, thanks very much Fay for your very kind introduction. And, yeah, I could talk a wee bit about how I got into Gaelic in the first place, and that’s led on to a kind of place name study and the book that you mentioned there on Glasgow’s Gaelic place names. I’m originally from the island of Mull, and I grew up hearing a fair bit of Gaelic, and particularly Gaelic song when I was a wee boy. My mum is a learner of Gaelic and she sings in Gaelic. So my sister and I grew up singing Gaelic with her and at her encouragement.

And my father’s too, I should mention him too. And so that was really my way into the language. The way things are in Mull at the moment, There are some native speakers of Gaelic, that can belong to Mull, but there’s a rapid decline of Gaelic in the 20th Century. So not too many people my age, I suppose, grew up speaking Gaelic as a native language. But there is a lot of interest now.

A kind of renewed interest in the Gaelic language and a more positive attitudes towards Gaelic. Not only in Mull, but in Glasgow. And that’s something that I’ve seen, firsthand, during my time in Glasgow. I came to Glasgow when I was when I was 18, to study at the University of Glasgow, and I’ve been kinda between Glasgow and Mull since. Mhmm.

But Glasgow, I feel very at home in Glasgow. And as I said, I think that well, hopefully, the the book can contribute to this as well, but I I think that that there are more, generally more positive attitudes towards, towards Gaelic and Scotland today. Glasgow’s a part of that story, And Glasgow is very much a part of the story of Gaelic, as well as in the future, and in the present, in the past as well. And I suppose that’s the main focus of of the book, Glasgow’s Gaelic Place Names, is is that story of Glasgow over the last millennium in Glasgow.

Fay Young 

So you were studying at Glasgow University and it, strengthened your own sense of being part of the Gaelic tradition. How did you discover what place names have to tell us? How how did you get into that?

Dr Alasdair Whyte

Well, when I started age 18 as an undergraduate at the university, I definitely didn’t expect to be studying place names and going on to to do a Master’s and a a PhD looking at place names. That came as a surprise to me. I started off doing, Gaelic and History and French, actually, in my first couple of years at the university. And it wasn’t until, the kind of, options came up in third and fourth year at Honours level that I realised that place name study was an option. Mhmm.

We had, I think, a background lecture in our 1st year to, as part of our Gaelic program on place names, so a kind of toe in the water. Really enjoyed that course at honours level in my third year, I think it was, maybe even fourth year, on the Celtic place names of Scotland. So the place names of Scotland that are of Celtic origin, either Gaelic or other medieval languages that have have fallen out of use, unlike Gaelic. Gaelic obviously survives and is spoken today but there are other Celtic languages that were productive of Scottish place names in the past. So learning about them and about Gaelic, that really encouraged me and kind of inspired me, as opposed to, to look a bit more into the origins of place names on my own patch in Mull, but also in Glasgow.

Mhmm. And I think it became clear fairly quickly after that how much kind of real world application place names can have, as well as it being fascinating to look into their origins and what it can can tell us about the past. I think it you don’t have to be in place name studies long to realise the kind of real world application of place names, and maybe that’s something we can talk about later on.

Fay Young

And I I was thinking when I was, you know, just getting ready to speak with you that in, in a way, your own journey from Mull to Glasgow is such a well worn path, And yet, when you get here you discover, it goes back a lot further than the Highland clearances. Was that as a surprise to you as as well?

Dr Alasdair Whyte

I think it probably was a surprise initially. And then it was a real motivating factor to kind of change the narrative or to draw attention to another bit of that story. So I think probably most listeners will be aware of, of the huge numbers of Gaelic speakers that were displaced as a result of clearance and immigration. Actually, much earlier than people probably imagine, even going back to the 17th century, and before that people come into kind of lowland in central Scotland for employment even before that. Obviously, we have big numbers, of Gaelic speakers coming to the Glasgow area in the 19th century, particularly.

And I suppose, yeah, the motivating factor for looking at the place names in part was to maybe move away from the kind of traditional narrative of the poor Gaelic speakers having to come to Glasgow, and really struggling to survive in a new place. Uh-huh. We really wanted to, to focus on the the fact that Gaelic had been spoken in Glasgow for many centuries before that. Mhmm. And for lots of different reasons, and if we’re talking about the medieval place names, the biggest reason there is the fact that Gaelic really was the main language of the community in Glasgow for a significant period of time, right in the middle of that kind of medieval period.

So maybe from the as early as 10th century, but certainly the 11th 12th century in the kind of greater Glasgow area, Gaelic was the the main language, the predominant community language. And if it wasn’t the the main evidence for that, and the best evidence that we have for that, is the place names. The place names, the Gaelic place names simply wouldn’t be there were that not fact. Gosh.

Fay Young

It takes a bit of a mind shift, doesn’t it, to to accommodate that new information. Were you working on on this research for a long time and then thought it was about time to share this with the wider world? Or or how how did it come about with you and your, your co writers, who are also eminent, experts in in the field of place names.

Dr Alasdair Whyte

Yeah. That’s right. And this is definitely a good time to talk a wee bit about, Katherine and Simon. So, yeah, Katherine Forsyth, Simon Taylor. I was Simon, doctor Simon Taylor is kind of Scotland’s foremost place name scholar.

He was my kind of lead supervisor on my PhD, actually. My PhD, as I said earlier on, looked at Mull place names, particularly, so on my own patch. And I was just coming to the end of that PhD. I think I maybe actually submitted. I was was in the final throes of that.

And, Professor Katherine Forsyth came to me and asked me if I’d be interested in branching out a wee bit Mhmm. Geographically and looking at the Glasgow place names. It’s something that we, we’d actually looked at with Simon and others on the place name course that I mentioned, the Celtic Place Names of Scotland course. But the idea initially was, yeah, to really counter that narrative of not only Glasgow’s Gaelic story being so much deeper chronologically than people might imagine, but also to kind of counter that narrative that, well, Gaelic was never spoken in Glasgow at all and that that it’s really a new thing. So the original project title was actually, Gaelic Spoken Here or mapping Gaelic Glasgow, we as Gaelic speakers, we quite often hear the kind of phrase, oh, Gaelic was never spoken in Glasgow.

I think people distancing, I suppose, that idea of or maybe attitudes just towards towards Gaelic, that it’s something that belongs to the islands and islands and doesn’t really isn’t really a part of identity in Glasgow and and other places in, with highlands and islands. Mhmm. But, as I hope the book demonstrates, that’s that’s not the case and, you know, it’s the kind of message that you don’t want to force down people’s throats. And I hope that the book doesn’t do that. It’s got a strong kind of blurb when it comes to that because it’s important to enter that narrative.

But what I hope from the book is that it’s really more of a celebration of the kind of multilingual and multicultural history of Glasgow. And, of course, that is true of history, but it’s also true of the present and of the future city of Glasgow. It’s going to be multilingual and multicultural Yeah. Going forward. It is already.

And I hope that Gaelic can be celebrated in the same way that other languages and cultures are in Glasgow.

Fay Young

It it makes for such such an interesting cultural experience to have all that diversity. But also if you have something that is so rooted in the origins of the city, that that, that’s an extra dimension. And I really like the wording on your title page of your book. It’s time to bin the nonsense that Gaelic was never spoken in Glasgow.

Dr Alasdair Whyte

Well, that’s a headline grabber, I suppose.

Fay Young

Yeah. It is. It is. There’s there’s so much, to to ask you about the the place names of of Glasgow, but perhaps we can, start with Shettleston, which I found so intriguing when we were talking earlier.

Dr Alasdair Whyte

Yeah. Very happy to to start with Shettleston. It’s one of my favorite place names, full stop, I think. And definitely up there with my favourite Glasgow place names. It’s a really interesting example because for Gaelic speakers, at least, on face value, you would you would never think, I don’t think, that that Shettelston had Gaelic origins as a name at all.

I mean, the form that we have today is fairly transparently a a Scots name. So the final part of the name, the toon part of the name, is very common in Scots place names. It’s a farm or a state, related to the English word town, although that’s it gives us maybe a false picture of what a town was when the name would have been first used, so more like an estate or a farm, certainly a kind of agricultural settlement of some sort. The first part is definitely not as transparent if you’re looking at it through a Scots lens, and that’s because it’s actually a Gaelic personal name. So this is one of these names.

Shettleson’s one of these names in Glasgow, which gives us a really, kind of, tantalizing glimpse at individuals in Glasgow’s story. So the individual in question here is a woman called well, we don’t know her name, but she is referred to in the place name as Nighean Sheadna. So the daughter of a man called Sheadna. Even from Shettleston, it was very difficult to get that, which leads me in, as opposed, to talking a wee bit about the methodology of place name research. So a big part of that is to really trace the name as far as we can back, in its written forms.

So it’s not just a case of looking at the modern map and be able to kind of tell what a name’s origin is by the way it appears on the modern map or the way it’s pronounced even, today. Sometimes, place names can change dramatically over the centuries, like Shettleston. And so when we trace the name back, in all the, kind of, sources that we could possibly think of that Shettleson might be recorded in. That takes us right back to 12th century and 1170, actually, the year 1170. And this place name is recorded in a Latin document.

And it’s actually recorded in Latin in 1170. And it meet the Latin name translates as the estate of the daughter of Sheadna. Three years later, we actually get the Gaelic form of the name which tells us kind of undoubtedly that Gaelic is being spoken by at least the scribe who’s recording the name in the document. And there’s lots of evidence to suggest that it’s not just the scribe that’s speaking Gaelic, but for the name to be established at all. Gaelic is is 1 of the languages, at least, that’s being spoken in the area at the time.

So in 1173, that document gives us a Gaelic form of the name. It’s Baile Nighean Sheadna, effectively. That’s what it would be in Right. In modern Gaelic. So, as I said, that kind of the state of the daughter of Sheitna.

So it’s a it’s a a fascinating name.

Fay Young

Isn’t it? It just is, and you just start to wonder who was, who was she? And why why was she? Because, I suppose we, we tend to think that women didn’t own property and didn’t have the same kind of rights as men, but there’s probably lots of challenges to that stereotypical view. But I’m just wondering how a name becomes a name.

Dr Alasdair Whyte

A really important point to make, I think, is that place names have to have a kind of user group to become established at all. They’re coined at some point. Somebody or some people start using this name, but then for it to really become established, it’s got to take a significant number of people to be using it. Or it just it falls out of use, and it doesn’t come onto our record at all. And that’s especially true in the medieval period where, you know, we don’t have maps at hand on our phones or, you know, ordinance survey maps, for example, to to look at online or to buy physical copies of, in the medieval period.

We have our kinda sources are few and far between. So, again, yeah, we need that user group, but we also need to trace our name through the centuries and the sources that we do have.

Fay Young

And do you do you develop a kind of mental picture of the place as, as you’re going back?

Dr Alasdair Whyte

Yeah. I think that’s a really a really nice thing about place names in a kind of urban environment is that, obviously, Glasgow is a huge city these days, and it that’s a fairly recent thing. It wasn’t a very big place at the beginning of 19th Century, probably a about a population of about 75,000 in 1801. The majority of place names that we have are are established long before that. As I was saying earlier on with likes of Shettleston and other names, Gaelic names, they’re established.

Oh, a good 600, 700 years before that in many cases. So, yes, place names can really give us a picture of what the the landscape was like before, how the the land was used, in the period before urbanisation and there’s some really nice examples of that in among the Gaelic place names. One of my other favorite names has got to be Gartnavel which gives us a really nice picture of what that area of Glasgow looked like in the past. It literally translates as the farm or the enclosure. Probably, the farm of the apple tree or the farm of the orchard.

So I suppose that place name is synonymous with the, the hospital these days. Yes. But in the past, it’s definitely an agricultural area. There are apple trees about. Another place name not too far to the north of Gartnavel , staying in the West End for now, would be well, a name connected to the University of Glasgow.

We’ve got a campus up in this place, Garscube. Oh. And actually the pronunciation of that name is interesting because I think I’ve heard pronunciation where it’s the stresses on the first part of the name, so Gars cube. But in the past, I think we can be very certain that the name would have been pronounced something like Garce cube. Uh-huh.

And the origins of that name are almost certainly Gaelic. In modern Gaelic, the name would be Garcescuap. So it hasn’t it hasn’t changed that much. But it’s one of these names that’s recorded again in the medieval period. We’ve got forms of this place name from the, at least, as early as the 15th Century.

And it actually contains the same first element as the name Gartnavel. So the Gaelic word Garth, which means an enclosure, and then in the Glaswegian comes to be, applied to farms, small farms. And then the scoop bit of the name or the scoap in Gaelic, it refers to sheaves of corn.

Fay Young

Oh, gosh.

Dr Alasdair Whyte

So this is, if listeners aren’t familiar with that word Yes. I suppose it’s not in kind of everyday vocabulary these days, but, that’s when you have kind of cereal crops, and they’re bundled together so that they dry. That’s a sheath, And, actually, I mean, the place name gives us this image already of a field with these crops that have been cultivated, and then cut, and harvested and Yes. And bundled together to dry, so we can see that field of of sheaves. But, also, just to maybe, tie the place name in research in with kind of wider historical research.

That’s that’s a big part of place name studies too. Is looking at the the context in which the place name forms are recorded. So for Garscube, we have, documents from the 15th 16th century which record a mill in this area as well. And so this is where the, again, the crops are. That’s where the crops go after they’ve been dried and harvested and dried.

So all the in the kind of evidence ties in with the place name, what the place name tells us.

Fay Young

It’s, it’s a very powerful image there. I mean, I come my Irish forebears had, were farming. And, I’m just seeing those, you know, the harvesting and the, and so you in Garscube, it would have been taken for milling to to make bread. Yeah.

Dr Alasdair Whyte

I would imagine so. I’m not sure we have that kind of detailed information in the sources that we have. We we know that there’s the mill there. But, yeah, that’s that’s the nice thing as well. We we have we have this evidence.

And a bit like Shettleston, we don’t quite have the full picture. So the other thing I would say is that there’s a wee bit of room there for even more creativity. So when I’m talking about place names, you know, with with students now at the university, I always make the point that that place names wouldn’t be they wouldn’t exist at all if it weren’t for humans and human people’s creativity and people’s imaginations because it takes people to, to look at the landscape in a certain way to use that name in the first place and to keep using that name. And where we are looking at older names, yeah, quite often, we can say a lot about the place in the past from the name and working out its origins and tracing it over the centuries, as I’ve said, But quite often, as is the case for Shettleston, we don’t have all that kind of biographical information about Nighean Sheadna, the daughter of Sheadna. So we can continue to be creative with these names.

We can make our own stories up about these names and raise awareness of the daughter of Sheadna in that way. So there’s room for creativity as well. So place names intersect with so many other disciplines and the creative arts, I would say, would is one of them.

Fay Young

Yes. Yeah. And I’m just seeing scope for for street theatre and storytelling of of different sorts. Are there any other examples?

Dr Alasdair Whyte

Well, sticking with that element, Garth, in Gaelic, there’s a really interesting name in, kind of, Northeast Glasgow. The Garth element in Gaelic comes into onto the modern map in a slightly different way and that the first part of the name this name is Garth and it’s Garthamlock. So, yeah. Again, referring to a farm, a small farm of some sort. And the second element on this name is really interesting because it’s the only example of this word, Gaelic word, being used in Scotland that we have is in this Glasgow place name.

So it’s absolutely fascinating. There’s place name studies. We have a a fair bit to travel yet with place name studies in Scotland, and there may be other names out there which contain this word. But place name studies involves comparison and contrast with, with place names in other parts of the world where the same languages have been spoken. So, when it comes to Scotland’s place names that involves comparison with lots of different places, on the Gaelic side of things with Isle of Man and with Ireland, and then in places, you know, overseas where Gaelic was spoken later on, even in Nova Scotia and Australia and New Zealand, and, and the the States as well.

But, there’s other languages involved as well in Scotland’s place names. So we have Welsh, for example, and Cornish, and Breton, which are related languages to Gaelic. And then we have Old Norse, so languages, in Scandinavia and in Iceland, for example. We quite often see the same place names or the same words, appearing in place names on all these places. We a huge part of place name studies is comparing and contrasting names and to see how these words are applied in place names elsewhere.

Anyway, I’ve gone a bit off track there, but the second part of that name, Garthamlock, that I mentioned, which lots of listeners will be familiar with I’m sure, seems to refer to some sort of burial grounds, maybe a new way in which people were kind of honoring the the dead. Mhmm. That seems to be how the the word is applied in place names in Ireland. So we have, compatible well, a name in Ireland, in Dublin, in fact, which contains the same word in kind of English being context and in an Irish speaking context, an area within Dublin.

So, yeah, it could be that this tells us something about the kind of shared culture between, call, the Glasgow area, the the kind of wider firth of Clyde and Southwest Scotland with parts of Ireland. But as I said, we also have a fair bit of work to do in place name studies to to do that kind of comprehensive survey of Scotland’s place names to tell us how unique this is. But at the moment, it’s completely unique to Glasgow, which is pretty exciting for us.

Fay Young

Yeah. That’s extraordinary. And what happens when you make that kind of unusual discovery? Is it exciting for you? I’m I’m sort of imagining you as as kind of detectives on a trail.

Dr Alasdair Whyte

It is. Yeah. It is exciting. I wasn’t familiar at all with the sources for place names when I before I took that honors course, you know, as a a 20, 21 year old, whatever I was back then, at the University of Glasgow. But as part of my kind of research of Mull place names, a big part of that is building up your knowledge of where the place names are like to be recorded, the the sources that that are going to to give you these early forms that are so important.

So, actually, quite an exciting thing about the the research, the kind of subsequent research in Glasgow was trying to find these sources because there are different sources for Glasgow’s place names than for Mull’s place names. There’s a bit of crossover there, some of the the maps of Scotland as a whole record place names in both places, for example. But, yeah, that was a a really exciting part of, of the Glasgow research, and there’s probably sources out there still, unpublished sources and archives that will give us more information on place names in the future. So that’s an exciting part. And then when you come across something that’s, you know, potentially unique to to Glasgow, That is really exciting too.

And, again, I think with just in terms of spreading the word and because I think the message is really important to tell Glasgow’s Gaelic story. I think that the unique things like that can capture the imagination of people and also can help people identify with that part of Glasgow’s story. For residents and for visitors to the area, I think it’s having that kind of USP like that is is really is really exciting.

Fay Young

Is is, ever any evidence on the ground of what you, you know, archaeologically perhaps? I mean, there you’ve got a new way of burying or honoring the dead. Has there ever been any searching that would reveal clues to that?

Dr Alasdair Whyte

Not for Garthamlock, but that’s a really important point, in terms of that intersection of place names with so many other disciplines and areas of research, that’s such a fundamental thing to place name studies is to to make sure that you do your your research or and make sure you’re aware of other the work that other people have done on not just archaeology as you’ve mentioned, but on geology and and agriculture and, song and poetry as well. That’s something that I’m really interested in myself. And although we don’t have too much medieval song that we know from from Glasgow, with what you know, which mentions place names. We do have that for other areas, and we can maybe talk a wee bit about that. But just to go back to the archaeology briefly, the book has a section kinda dedicated specifically to archaeology and Professor Katherine Forsyth, a a co author in the book, That’s her background, actually, as well as the Celtic language side of things.

So, Katherine led the way in the archaeology front. And we have names in Glasgow like, Bloghairn, for example, which mention Cairns. So the Gaelic word Cairn, which is borrowed into Scots and into English as Cairn. Yeah. One of these many Gaelic words which had an influence on on modern Scots and modern English.

We haven’t come across evidence for Cairns in that part of Glasgow, unfortunately.

Fay Young

Mhmm.

Dr Alasdair Whyte

The place name tells us that they almost certainly were there and that’s what they referred to, but the urban landscape now hides that. But we do know there’s another Blachairn here in north of Glasgow, for example, where we do have these Cairns. So again, that comparison and contrast is is so important.

Fay Young

Yes. And and as you you’ve mentioned song and poetry, the sound of, of the the names, does that alert you to the contrast and comparisons that you’re making? That it’s, you know, maybe, maybe to the layperson, it doesn’t sound so similar. But you you can hear that, ah, yeah, this this combination of of vowels or or consonants is is similar to something elsewhere and that gives you clues.

Dr Alasdair Whyte

Absolutely. Yep. That’s such an important part of Place Name Studies and a really enjoyable part of Place Name Studies as well, I would say, is that to do place name research properly, you really have to talk to people. So I suppose academics sometimes get a reputation for being recluses, locked away in an office somewhere with the or in a library somewhere. But for place name studies, at least, we need to go out and talk to people because pronunciation of names can tell us so much.

As we’ve kind of seen already in some of the names that we’ve talked about, place names in there, in terms of how they’re written on paper or on maps, how they appear on maps can change a lot over the centuries, dramatically at times. But pronunciation is one of these things which seems to have real longevity more often than not. So the same stress pattern seems to continue even when there’s big language shift and big language change. And that’s something which can really help us identify whether a place name is of Celtic origin or of Germanic origin, for example. So to give you a good example of that, in Gaelic place names, one of the Celtic languages, obviously, the stress tends to fall on the second element.

So if you have a Gaelic name which means big town or, let’s say, new town. So Newton would be a fairly common place name in Scots, and the the emphasis is obviously on the new the stress is on the the new element of that because that’s what’s different about this particular town. It’s a new town. In Gaelic, the stress is actually the other way around. So the Gaelic equivalent would be Ballou, I suppose, Newtown.

Just from the pronunciation, you can hear whether or not it’s a Celtic or a Germanic, origin. There’s some nuance to that. It’s it’s not hard and fast rule, but very often pronunciation can reveal things about the place name on its own before we even start looking at the written forms. So it’s really important part of the, kind of, methodology.

Fay Young

Oh, that’s so intriguing. Yeah. And and it’s something that you’re aware of, you know, when when you’re a newcomer to a place, is just getting the stress in the right place because you you can you can offend people, can’t you, if if you pronounce it wrong?

Dr Alasdair Whyte

Yeah. That’s right. And that’s I think that’s another really interesting maybe brings us on to that kind of real world application of place names too. And maybe what what place name studies can do for us and their significance, the significance of place name studies. So, yes, you’re absolutely right.

People sometimes get frustrated if if people, like, kind of are new to a place or are visiting a place, pronounce the name in a different way to the way it’s pronounced locally, and people can get quite frustrated and, frustrated about that, I suppose, would be a nice way of putting it. I think that just tells us how significant place names are to identity. People really identify with place. And maybe that’s something that’s not as strong as it was in the past in some cases when it comes to our relationship with the land. We don’t rely on the land as much to survive, I suppose.

That kind of critical nature of that relationship with the land is not what it was in the past. People, you know, really needing to get the most out of the land, knowing the land intimately to to survive. That’s not as strong as it was in the past, but I’d say that something that still very much is as strong as it was is that I the way that people identify with place. This is where I’m from. This is, you know, where I where I belong.

Uh-huh. This is, you know, it’s the people and the the place that people are really identify with. So in terms of how we can use place name studies maybe to speak to people and to bring people in is to to use that. The fact that place names are so profoundly connected to identity.

Fay Young

Uh-huh. Uh-huh. We were talking about how much the natural environment is part of the place name and that has included so many tree. Or orchards or birches or oaks. How is that, why are trees so important?

Dr Alasdair Whyte

Well i think that’s something that really demonstrates are so important because it demonstrates the really profound connection  . That Gaels had in the past and arguably still do with woodland and trees is the fact that the Gaelic alphabet actually is based on the names of trees in Gaelic.

So I suppose theres nothing more kind of fundamental to the language than the actual alphabet. So these images of trees and knowledge of different trees, an intimate knowledge of different trees are really central to Gaelic speaking. The life, the life of Gaels in the past. You see that in so many other contexts too, trees are often a very stock image  when it comes to poetry.

Strong leaders and champions are referred to are compared to an oak, for example.  There are good trees and bad trees. Such a fundamental part of the language, what people turn to when they’re being used in poetry and song. and just reinforces that connection that gaelic speaking people had to the natural environment in the past. 

Fay Young

Perhaps we could just go back to that point you were making a a few moments ago about, becoming disconnected from the land, or at least not being aware of how much we still do rely on the land and the living environment. Your own researches do bring together so much of that. Your interests seem to be really very much connected with with that interplay between natural environment, how humans, exist. And would you like to talk a bit more about that? The the the point you made, I think, when we were speaking earlier about if trees could talk, what what would they tell us about our environment and the way we behave?

Dr Alasdair Whyte

Yeah I think, If Glasgow’s Trees Could Talk could be a great podcast series.

Fay Young

Fantastic. Yes.

Dr Alasdair Whyte

Talk about that again.

Fay Young

Yes. Yes.

Dr Alasdair Whyte

But that kind of environmental sustainability, obviously, that’s something which is a real pressing concern. We’re in this age of a climate emergency, and we’re not as we don’t have the same kind of relationship with the land as we did in the past, but it’s something which place names can contribute to strengthening, I think. I very much believe that, and it’s something that’s a kind of direction that my research has taken recently. I’ve had a chance to work with quite a few colleagues here at the university, and not just the university, beyond the university, you know, working with community partners and researchers elsewhere, too on, yeah, the real world applications of place name studies. So an example of that would be looking at oysters and place names recently on a big project here at the university.

So looking at place names to just a bit of context to this, native oysters, the stocks of native oysters are almost, I think, the figure is around 95% down on what they were at 1 time. Mhmm. Due to over consumption and overfishing and not managing the kind of natural resource very well at all. I think the figures tell us that. So we’ve been taking place names and and establishing where there were populations of native oysters in the past with a view to restoring that habitat and and making sure that there’s a kind of sustainable resource there in the future at at all.

If we want that to happen then, I think place names are going to have to play a a big role in that. Identifying where oysters were in the past, but also where they can be in the future where we can reintroduce them. Within a Glasgow context, we’ve been doing that with, well, One example of that would be looking at woodland. So where native species of woodland are referred to in place names. We’ve got a few examples of that in Glasgow.

Place names like Dalbeth on the on the Clyde which refers to Birch. We’ve got Cardarach in, kind of, Northeast Glasgow as well, which refers to oak. Ah. There are quite a few examples. Again, Glasgow’s pretty good, generally, at green space and making sure that that there is greens there are green spaces within the the kind of modern city.

But knowing where these native species of tree were in the in the past can, I think, play an important role in where in how we manage the land going forward, how we manage woodland going forward, and how we get that balance

Fay Young

Probably there are still seeds in the ground from those ancient oaks and birch trees. Just waiting for their chance. Seeds do lie dormant for such a long time. Perhaps like the Gaelic place names. This is such a daunting time that we’re living in but what you’re describing is such an uplifting continuity. Do you find yourself there are reasons for optimism in your work? Perahaps we could return to what you said earlier about Glasgow’s great wealth of Gaelic.

Dr Alasdair Whyte

Well, I think that’s a really lovely metaphor that you’ve used there yourself about the kind of seeds lying dormant because I think that’s exactly how we describe Gaelic language and culture across Scotland. A lot of what we have is lying dormant at the moment. It’s not dead.

Fay Young

Uh-huh.

Dr Alasdair Whyte

The language is still spoken, and there are people with the expertise and and knowledge of the language and of the culture to pass on, and lots of ways in which we can we can do that to make sure that we do enrich life in Scotland for everyone. I’m pretty passionate about that, both within a mall context and a Glasgow context. And something which does really give me optimism is the kind of studies that have been done recently which show that there are increasingly more positive attitudes towards Gaelic. So the context for this is important too and that Gaelic really is at crisis point in terms of it being a living community language where there are native speakers of Gaelic. So we have to do everything that we can to make sure that these native speakers and communities in which Gaelic is a native language, to make sure that that those people and that Gaelic is supported in those contexts.

Within a Glasgow context, there are children who are being born and raised in Gaelic speaking families. And, at the same time, we’ve got a real increase in interest and it seems to be a generational thing in Gaelic among people who have no Gaelic background whatsoever, and I think that’s something to be celebrated. Both of those things, that we have native speakers left, who are willing to pass on their knowledge and expertise and their their language and their stories, and we have people who are interested in learning that who have no Gaelic background. And I think that’s that’s really visible in the the kind of increasing provision and strength of Gaelic medium education in the city. The growing number of Gaelic speakers in the city, you know, at the level of skills, but also among adult learners.

So just to kind of quantify that in numbers, in the 2011 census, we had around 60,000 speakers, fluent speakers of Gaelic, and around 10,000 of them based in Glasgow. So that’s a really quite a high proportion. And I think that’s that is definitely a reason for optimism. And just to go back to your lovely metaphor about things lying dormant, That I think that that that really can enrich our lives as to to awaken these place names and and all the kind of wealth of language and and lore and story and song that’s associated with the place names. They can we can learn so much from them, and we can they can give so much to us in our daily lives too.

Fay Young

Uh-huh. That’s that’s a really lovely thing to think about. And especially as as a proud grandmother, I’m really pleased that, 2 of my grandchildren are at Gaelic school and learning Gaelic and singing Gaelic as well, most beautifully. But, I can imagine them and their friends, becoming really interested in place names and finding the, you know, maybe, just connections across the city and and, as you were saying earlier about the the creative possibilities in in just learning, origins of the place that you’re living in, and and maybe picturing the people who lived there before, and it’s a great adventure, I think.

Dr Alasdair Whyte

Yeah. I I totally agree with that, and I think it can be really empowering for for young people to be able to to talk about their own place, the place that they are so familiar with, by referring to Gaelic language and culture as well as, you know, other languages and cultures. I I think that that can only be a good thing. I think we’ve seen in studies recently as well about, in relation to health and well-being, how diversity can contribute to that increased health and well well-being and and song as well, which you mentioned. I’m so glad to hear that your your grandchildren are are singing in Gaelic too.

I think that’s something that, again, can just bring us together and, such a lovely way to we’ve got such a rich song culture in Gaelic that it’s something that we can really celebrate. Use to celebrate, you know, as part of where we’re from.

Fay Young

Yeah. And as I I suppose my grandchildren, a bit like yourself when you were growing up, that the song comes first. And actually, the speaking comes later. The singing is is a lovely, joyful thing to do. And I’m just remembering you were a a mod winner. Is that it? sorry. That’s probably not the right way to describe it. But you you had a a great, start in song, didn’t you, on on Mull?

Dr Alasdair Whyte

I did. Yeah. I always I’ll, yeah, be forever grateful for that, not only within the family, but within the wider community of people encouraging me to to sing in Gaelic. That being the my way into the language and also hearing I think just reinforcing that real connection to place. Hearing, you know, people that as well as my mother, other people in the community who kind of would help me learn the songs.

I remember them saying, this is how we pronounce this in Mull. You might hear it pronounced differently elsewhere, but this is how we pronounce this word in Mull. And this is a song from just down the road. I think that can be really, well, has been really empowering for me. And I think just in in terms of education, as well as the the song I think you’re quite right.

The the songs can be a really useful way of, you know, starting off on your kinda learner journey if it comes to Gaelic. In Gaelic song culture, we have a lot of songs which have a refrain or a chorus, which are really were created by people so that other people could join in. That’s that’s a big part of the culture that always has been, and it will be going forward too. So in in terms of education, song is is really important. And just to go back to the place names and and and within the context of education, place names are also I mean, I’ve talked probably at too much length in terms of some of the place names today, but I think that place names are these real kind of bite sized chunks of language and culture in and of themselves.

Typically, a place name has 2 constituent parts and that is such a lovely and useful educational tool is to to have that real bite sized chunk of of language and culture within the place name.

Fay Young

That’s a great way to describe it. What what more are you working on at the moment? What what follows the the book?

Dr Alasdair Whyte

I’m really keen within a Glasgow placement context to, as a team, we’ve done a bit of this already, feed the kind of research into the curriculum in the Gaelic schools in the city. I think that’s an important thing to do. What I would also really like to do is to make sure that we feed the research into the, kinda, English speaking curricula as well at different levels. So one I think that would really that would really benefit Gaelic and, in turn, benefit Scotland as a whole is making sure that people have a bit more exposure to Gaelic. Not just in Gaelic skills, but across curricula.

We grow up with so many words in English from English is an amazing language in itself. And that it’s it’s got this kind of propensity to borrow from other languages. So we’re we’re used to words from French and from Spanish, Another an Italian, for example, used on a daily basis when we’re speaking in English. Historically, we would have had that in Scottish English and in Scots too. There would have been a huge influence from Gaelic on that.

And there’s a lot to be said for for making sure that there’s more exposure to Gaelic across Scotland in in that way. So that would definitely be quite high on the list in terms of, you know, within a a Glasgow place name context. The other projects, Mull place names still obviously very close to my heart. So, yeah, publishing on Mull place names before too long. And then really that kind of environmental sustainability aspect of my research to really keen to take forwards the oyster habitat suitability project that I mentioned in passing earlier.

You know, we’ve identified places now where we know oysters where native oysters were in the past. So, actually, working with people to reintroduce native oysters in those places is something that we’re actively looking at doing now. And as part of that process would be sharing stories and songs and place names that we’ve come across in these places to to kind of raise awareness of what we’re doing and of the importance significance of native oysters in the past and how how they can contribute to a sustainable coastal communities going forward.

Fay Young

Yeah. Just like the herring fisheries have obviously their lore and their song. And so are you able to say where the oyster beds are or or would be would have been?

Dr Alasdair Whyte

Yeah. Well, we’ve we our kind of initial research was from the Solway Firth up to the Isle of Skye. Although, we did look at the Outer Hebrides as well. So we have a map that’s, it’s not actually publicly available yet. We’ve been working with with various partners on this just sharing our research with them just to make sure that we do the the right thing.

NatureScot, for example, to make sure that we go about this in the right way. We’ve got, expertise, on the project from from different areas within the the university, but there are a couple of places in in Mull, actually. You’re probably not surprised to hear that we’re we’re looking at in particular, because of that associated lore that I’ve come across in my own research to kind of tie in with the project. Mhmm.

Fay Young

Yeah. Because an an oysters used to be actually part of a staple diet, didn’t they? They weren’t the the food of the wealthy. And of course, the Firth of Forth had, I think they had oyster wars, didn’t they? In the, whenever it was, 18th 19th centuries.

I’m straying into territory that I don’t really know enough about. But and, and, I can’t believe that we we’re reaching the last question of this, conversation which is, asked of every guest, and that is if you have a favourite building in Glasgow and what it would say if its walls could talk.

Dr Alasdair Whyte

Well, the I’m sure my employer would love me to see the University of Glasgow and its old buildings. And I suppose that just to in relation to that, you know, the university has given me so much on my on my life to date. You know, I’ve been within the walls of different university buildings since I was 18 and I know that the the cloisters, for example, and the old buildings as part of the main building at the university are such iconic. So iconic in Glasgow’s kind of modern cityscape. When you ask the question, I think places like the old Clincart farm, which was part of Lesser Hampden, come to mind.

I’ve seen photos of that, you know, with the haystacks Uh-huh. Right next to the old stadium and that kind of urban and rural Glasgow in the same photograph really is, I suppose, a huge part of the book. Glasgow’s Gaelic Place Names, that kind of with 1 eye on urban Glasgow in the present and in the future and an an eye on rural Glasgow in the past. That’s that’s really central to the book. It’s not just about Glasgow’s past.

It’s about Glasgow’s future and what we can how how it can be, you know, a really vibrant, multilingual, and multicultural city going forward with Gaelic as part of that Gaelic language and culture as part of that. So, yeah, I’d love to speak to the walls of, the old Clincart farm and other buildings like that and have a chat about Gaels of the past and place names of the past.

Fay Young

That’s a great idea that it would be a conversation. It’s not just you standing there listening to what the walls are saying. You’re actually engaging with it with it. In fact, I think that’s possibly been a theme of our conversation today is is just that, constant, you know, dialogue between the past and the present. And and that that is a hopeful idea that that we keep on learning from that.

And and the picture you’re creating of that city, the urban, rural city, is is a really exciting I1II think. Alastair, thank you so much. This has been a just I just it it the conversation could go on and maybe we can come back to it, especially with the talking trees. Thank you again. That that has been a really lovely, enjoyable conversation with you.

Dr Alasdair Whyte

Taing Mhor, Thanks very much.

Katharine Neil

Glasgow City Heritage Trust is an independent charity and grant funder that promotes the understanding, appreciation, and conservation of Glasgow’s historic built environment. Do you want to know more? Have a look at our website atglasgowheritage.org.uk and follow us on social media at Glasgow Heritage. This podcast was produced by Inner Ear for Glasgow City Heritage Trust and is sponsored by Tunnocks.

Jackie Ogilvie

Underneath, we don’t have a lot to show you. It is the stories. It’s the stories that we need to keep telling. I’m a great believer for history, especially recent history. We need to keep telling the stories or the stories die. So if I can do my wee bit to tell the stories and keep that continuity going and make sure that people still remember the greatness of this wonderful city, I think that’s a privilege for me to be able to do that.

Niall Murphy

I feel very strongly about that too

Jackie Ogilvie

But it’s the story. It’s the stories. Other than that, I take you to a car park. I take you down to an old tunnel. I mean, the building itself is wonderful. However, once you go down underneath, it’s it’s a little bit less  Architecturally divine.

Niall Murphy

You realise that when when you’re doing a tour and it’s the human stories people connect with. 

Jackie Ogilvie

Absolutely. 

Niall Murphy

Hello, and welcome to the 3rd series of If Glasgow’s Walls Could Talk . I’m Niall Murphy, Director of Glasgow City Heritage Trust. And for this series, I’m joined by co host, writer, and editor Fay Young. We’re looking forward to sharing 10 fantastic stories with you. Glasgow’s walls are endlessly full of stories. And where better to begin than Glasgow’s Central Station? Right in the heart of the city, it’s the only station in the UK to run guided tours, and it’s revealing more and more of the social history hidden throughout this wonderful building. We’re about to meet Jackie Ogilvie, one of the very talented guides who brings these stories to life. 

Fay Young

Yes, Niall. And that’s an intriguing story in itself. Jackie spent most of her working life as a banker, but in the last few years, she’s discovered her love for history, storytelling, and generally unearthing treasures. She’s going to lead us through underground passages down to the hidden Victorian platform, and on the way, we’ll be able to explore her great personal achievement, the new museum where she spent a remarkably productive and often very moving lockdown. But first, let’s hand over to Jackie to tell us how all this began. 

Jackie Ogilvie

So the origin of the tour is our man, Paul. Back in the day, 10 years ago, he wanted to do tours of the station. Paul is a great reader and, really into the history of the station.  And he was really keen to do tours. Boss supported, but a little bit cautious. So to try it out because none of this you have to remember back in the day. Nothing none of this has been done before. 

Niall Murphy

Yeah.

Jackie Ogilvie

we were breaking new ground back then. And they they approached Glasgow City Council through Doors Open Day 

Niall Murphy

Right. 

Jackie Ogilvie

And they took a 100 tickets for tours of the station. Part of the tours on those particular days was on the roof of the station. And we put the tickets on the website and got an excess of 80,000 applications. And as you can imagine, the tour started right after that because it was quite clear there was an appetite. So very much Paul’s baby. He’s been here. 

Niall Murphy

Did not break the Doors Open Day website?

Jackie Ogilvie

Yes. It broke the website on on on Glasgow City Council for 3 days, but but needless to say, the tours ran after that. So Paul’s been the constant. Myself, personally, I’ve been a tour guide here now for just coming up for 5 years. Loved it. Love every minute. My husband keeps saying he can’t believe somebody’s paying me to talk. So so it’s always always quite, quite good to come in and and feel that you can chat away with it without somebody telling me to be quiet. It’s quite good. 

Fay Young

Are you interested in history?

Jackie Ogilvie

I would say I was interested in history to a degree. I like to think and I’ve got to watch  I don’t get emotional, but my mother was a great storyteller and she grew up in the city centre of Edinburgh and lived during the war on Castleway North on the steps just at the Esplanade. And so she used to tell us all the stories about the city centre of Edinburgh, and and there were fantastic stories about and I would listen. And I grew up with that and I think that has been embedded in me. I was always interested to degree in history and especially in Scottish history. I worked as a banker for most of my working life and then took early retirement/redundancy. And I became a tour guide on the open top buses for a bit of fun. I wanted to do something different, something, I’ve always dealt with people. I’m a, you know, so it was I wanted to continue that, but I wanted to do something for me. And I I I just discovered that I loved it. I just loved it and it kinda got me in really more seriously into the background of especially this wonderful city. There’s just so much that a lot of the locals just don’t know. 

Niall Murphy

Yes. 

Jackie Ogilvie

So to be able to share that was was a joy. 

Fay Young

And did you have to do some training for the the bus tours? 

Jackie Ogilvie

Yes. When you become a tour guide with city sightseeing, the the the red buses that that tour the city. They put you through your yellow badge for your tour guiding. So you the Scottish tourist boat. Sure. So you get I think a yellow badge means a particular city. You have a green badge, which is multiple cities, and then you have your blue badge, which is the whole of Scotland, and that’s the qualification levels. So they put you through, I think it was 6 or 9 weeks training, which was was great in getting all the information, but also getting help on structuring your tours as well and what people were looking for, and how to engage them. It was always a great foundation for me doing the tours. That’s what gave me the the skills to get with you. 

Fay Young

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. 

Niall Murphy

It’s a definite art to it. I mean, I know from having done various walking tours, I’ve got to do one along the Clyde for the BBC’s coast program once. Yeah. That was a tough gig. Yeah. Because there was, like, nothing left. So you’re basically asking people to kind of visualize in their head what was once there. 

Jackie Ogilvie

Yes. 

Niall Murphy

And it wasn’t until we got to the Clydeport building, which is amazing Yeah. That everyone suddenly really parked up. It’s like, oh, thank god. A piece of architecture that we actually talk about. Yes. Yeah. 

Jackie Ogilvie

And I think that that’s quite comparable to the station because, Niall, you’ve done the tour. Underneath, we don’t have a lot to show you. It is the stories. It’s the stories that we need to keep telling. I’m a great believer for history, especially recent history. We need to keep telling the stories or the stories die. So if I can do my wee bit to tell the stories and keep that continuity going and make sure that people still remember the greatness of this wonderful city, I think that’s a privilege for me to be able to do that, the building itself is wonderful. Yep. However, once you go down underneath, it’s it’s a little bit less architecturally divine.

Niall Murphy

You realise that when when you’re doing a tour and it’s it’s the human stories people connect with. 

Jackie Ogilvie

Absolutely. And there’s so many things that and I’ll show you later on when we’re  going through. There are things that you always hear. People start to tell their stories. It triggers memories with them. 

Niall Murphy

Yes. 

Jackie Ogilvie

And then they start to tell their stories. And if that’s what happens when you’re here and and it’s continuing Yeah. Then You can you can you 

Niall Murphy

can get proper dialogue. 

Jackie Ogilvie

Absolutely. Absolutely. And emotionally, you know, it can it can go from quite a cold tour and then something that triggers somebody, you know, or a group to have memories and then suddenly it becomes very emotive 

Niall Murphy

Yeah. 

Jackie Ogilvie

And then very, very personal Yes. To the people that are on the tour.  

Fay Young

So before we start the tour, if we could just spend a moment looking at what is around us because I suppose, like most people, when I come here, I’m on my way to catch a train. 

Jackie Ogilvie

I think everybody is running and in a hurry. I’ll tell you what I tell my customers when they come on.

So on the 1st August 1879, Central Station opened their doors. She was built, of course, by the Caledonian Railway Company, and it was built on a site of a small village. A small village called Grahamston, which has been forgotten. But I’ll tell you I can tell you more about that later on. When we first opened our doors, she wasn’t the size she is today. She was we had 8 platforms. Where our platform 9 is today, that was our platform 1. And where platform 9 is, if you look at the green pillars with a huge rivets sticking out them, that’s the border. That was the original station. From from the green pillars out to Union Street. So that was the original station. 8 platforms. Couple of years later, platform 9 was added because well, this had been a bit of an experiment and passenger transport was growing at a pace nobody had predicted. And then, we were doing fine, but passenger transport was growing and growing. So in the initial build of Central Station in 1879, the west side of the village of Grahamston, that survived. Saint Columba’s Gaelic Church was the most famous building of that until 1901 when we decide it’s time to build an extension. So when we start our extension, the rest of Grahamstown is demolished. We take the stops, which the stops have come in here much further forward than what they do, to just in the middle of the concourse, really, that’s where the trains would have come to back in the day. And remember, people have this romantic notion that central station back in the day was a beautiful beautiful place and it was atmospheric, but it was a dirty, filthy place to come because you were coming in and the the smoke, all the stoor and the dust was coming in. The glass was black with the smoke caked on. So when we started our extension, we pushed we pushed them back. Stops for the trains really went back to where they are today, roughly, and we added on some platforms at the west side.

We also built a brand new bridge. For those of you who frequent Glasgow, I’m quite sure you’ll all have seen the supports for our original bridge. They stick out the Clyde. You can’t miss them if you’re down on the Broomielaw, you’ll see them or if or if if you happen to be on a train leaving on the east side, you’ll see them sticking out the river. And they just well, they just won the end of the road, so we left them. We built our bridge which doubled our capacity, but the problem that it gave us was when it was completed, the only place we could add our extra platforms on that we needed was the west side, and our numbering of the platforms was not what we needed. So we had to reverse it in 1906 . Once the extension was complete. So we we reversed the numbering. So if you see an old photograph of central station and 8 or 9 are over on the east side, it’s just old. It’s not wrong.

The roof is original. Glass replaced in 1998. So, she’s a longitudinal ridge and furrow. People will just think she’s just full of girders, which is right, and it plays absolute havoc with our Wi Fi. It’s just getting caught. We keep getting told it’s very good, but it’s not. And I think it is the girders interfere with it. Right. Okay. So longitudinal ridge and furrow roof is is the technical term for it. And that sounds quite technical. It’s really, really simple. Yeah. Because at Gorden Street is north. Out onto the tracks is south, she’s running longitudinal. And if you look up and see, you’ll see ridges and furrows just in where it says on the tin

Niall Murphy

Absolutely. 

Niall Murphy

I love this roof. It’s really dramatic and powerful. 

Jackie Ogilvie

Absolutely. And 2 sections. The architect for the original build was a man called Robert Rowand Anderson, and he did the original build. When it came to the extension, a former railway architect, James Miller, was awarded the contract for here. I’m a big big fan of James Miller and there’s so many so many buildings in Glasgow by this man. At the time, it was Glasgow’s most prolific architect. But he doesn’t get talked an awful lot about.

Niall Murphy

It’s a shame. 

Jackie Ogilvie

It’s a sin

Niall Murphy

He should be better known. 

Jackie Ogilvie

Oh, absolutely better known. 

Niall Murphy

Yeah. His his interventions in this station are really interesting, working with Donald Matheson, the Caledonian Railway Company Engineer.

Jackie Ogilvie

They went they went to school together. 

Niall Murphy

Oh did they? I knew there was a connection back in Perthshire. So that was it, right? That’s very interesting.. 

Niall Murphy

So the things like the the huge pods 

Jackie Ogilvie

Yeah. 

Niall Murphy

The torpedo room, this is what it was called, which is where your tour stars from, I just think they’re  amazing because they’re designed to make you flow through the station like a river. Because Donald Matheson had been to the United States and Canada to see what’s happening in stations there and brough those ideas back here. 

Jackie Ogilvie

Yeah. If you look around at our internal buildings, we don’t have any corners. That was James Miller’s idea. Let it let everything flow through and it’s just soft and you’re you’re going through. So and again, that’s something that people don’t realise, but we don’t actually have any severe cornerstone.

So then in 1901, we’ve moved all the bits back. We’ve provided added our platform. And then at that point, we have to reverse our numbering of our platforms because we were going west to east. We had to turn that around and go east to west to fit in the extra platforms that we were adding in the extension.

Fay Young

It’s a nice simple idea, actually. Just renumber it! 

Niall Murphy

I wondered about one thing, and I wonder whether you could this one. This has puzzled me for years. The dome over Champagne Central, because James Miller did the all the great liners. He did the interiors. He was the only one of the only architects to admit to actually do in this. As it was seen as beneath architects to be involved in kind of liner design, which amazes me.

Jackie Ogilvie

Of course, he had the Anchorline Building 

Niall Murphy

He did. 

Jackie Ogilvie

In in Saint Vincent Place. 

Niall Murphy

And Lusitania, the interiors on the Lusitania. So but he worked with Oscar Patterson quite a bit, the great Glasgow stained glass artist. And I was told that that dome was originally stained glass, but it’s now it’s a plaster dome inside. And I wondered at some point if that changed. And before, Grand Central was kind of, you know, recreated and kind of regenerated, there in each of those windows, there was in the kind of the central pane of the kind of, you’ve kind of got the upper panes with the kind of the grids in them. The central pane had a piece of stained glass from Oscar Patterson in them. When it was refurbished, they were all removed because I remember them being there and I’ve no idea what happened to them.

Jackie Ogilvie

I apologise because I am not aware of that. I wasn’t aware of that. 

Niall Murphy

So I just I’d always wonder whether that had continued up and say, don’t because he did all these fabulous domes elsewhere. Yes. It’s been lovely. And I wondered whether it might be removed from the 2nd World War. You wouldn’t want light shining up when 

Jackie Ogilvie

Possibly. Possibly.

Niall Murphy

Bombing the city. 

Jackie Ogilvie

Well, during World War II, of course, we painted our our glass black. In 1960s they tried to remove it, found it very difficult because it wasn’t just black paint. It was, in fact, the baked on tar from all the the the trains. And it wasn’t until 1998 that they replaced all the glass in the station as a renovation project. So people, when they come into the station today, accept that Central Station is a very light and airy place. Back then, it was a dirty, filthy, dark and very dark place. Very dark. And that was really up till 1998. 

Niall Murphy

It’s amazing to think about

Jackie Ogilvie

This is not this is not a 100 years ago. This is just very recent. So and of course, there’s renovations going on just now. 

Niall Murphy

Yes. 

Fay Young

Yeah. Yes. You are struck by the light and and that’s reflected on the floor as well, isn’t it? 

Niall Murphy

Yeah. I think this is 1980s, the flooring. So because it wasn’t wasn’t like this originally. Oh, no. The station has changed quite a bit. So there’s a ramp up at the back, which was for taxis. And so taxis were Central Central Station Hotel, was to come through the back around the back of the torpedo route, and then out that wee arch, which is now a pedestrian arch. So completely different nowadays. 

Jackie Ogilvie

And and and is, Carriage Drive was originally created in the original station from the affluent members of society in Glasgow. They didn’t really want to mix with the riffraff on the concourse. So they would come up, they would come up carriage drive off Hope Street, and it’s like people will remember it because we all used it. Pick up our grannies or our aunties or whatever. At where platform 15/14 or 15 are today. So you would come up as a kind of spiral that comes up and you would come up to 14 and 15. And then we were offered and told we were getting a link to Glasgow Airport. So we brought 14 and 15 which had been sitting far out. We brought them in ready for that and we’re still So so and carriage drive is still in use, but only for emergency vehicles and and business access. Oh, that’s sweet. We can take a real look at the Classic. Absolutely. It’s quite interesting piece of architecture as well. So the concourse in itself, when you’re here, there’s lots to see. Mhmm. Most most people focus on the board, which is quite sad when all this beauty is around them. Mhmm. You’ll also notice that there are no pillars on the concourse. And again, the idea for that was that we wanted this flow. The load bearing for the roof, which as you can imagine, is quite substantial, are the pillars that run along the side. 

Niall Murphy

Right. 

Jackie Ogilvie

So all of the crisscrosses that you see in the girders creates a weight, spreading the weight and taking it out to the ends, and then it’s the pillars at the side that actually bear the load. And the same as behind the the behind the torpedo, you’ll see pillars again exactly the same. 

Niall Murphy

Fascinating. I had no idea. I just think it’s such an evocative space. It’s my favourite space in Glasgow

Jackie Ogilvie

Yes. And I don’t I I defy anyone in Glasgow to not have a story about Central Station. Mhmm. Most people have. And most people have a love for Central Station. 

Niall Murphy

Very much. 

Jackie Ogilvie

Queen Street Station, they can spend what they like on her. She’ll never have the kudos that Central station has. 

Fay Young

Why do you think that is? I mean, it’s it’s is it because it’s the main arrival point for Glasgow for people coming from elsewhere? 

Jackie Ogilvie

Sure. Let me move over the south. I’m I’m not really sure why that is, but everybody you speak to on the 2 tells you that it is, you know, that it is central Yeah. That pulls at the heartstrings. Yeah. 

Niall Murphy

Yeah. Yeah. 

Jackie Ogilvie

Queen Street is just a way to get to Edinburgh and back.

Fay Young

Yes. Well, it is. It is. It is. Yeah. It is

Niall Murphy

It’s it has gotten better with its new extension butCentral’s got the history. Absolutely. And it’s something you make so much more of the history.

Jackie Ogilvie

And yet Queen Street’s older. 

Niall Murphy

Yeah. I know which is really nice. 

Jackie Ogilvie

And Queen Street has its own history. Yeah. She was built on on the the the Bell’s quarry or or Yes. And the Crack on House quarry quarry as it was known. Right. Built there when the sandstone quarry was exhausted. The city then went out to Giffnock to Bishopbriggs and they Yes. Sands more blonde sandstone. And the majority of the blonde sands when they built George Square came from 

Niall Murphy

Yeah. 

Jackie Ogilvie

Underneath where Queen Street Station was built. 

Fay Young

Yeah. Yeah. 

Jackie Ogilvie

So there you go. That’s fascinating. So she has her own She does. But it’s not as good as central. I know. I know. 

Niall Murphy

Fascinating. 

Jackie Ogilvie

So she has her own history She does. Which is not as good as central. I know. Well, I mean, 

Niall Murphy

I’m really interested by the fact that you’ve kind of really zeroed in on the history and you make so much of the history here too. Are there any other stations in the UK that kind of mainline stations that do that to the same degree? 

Jackie Ogilvie

No. This is the only, at the moment. 

Niall Murphy

Right. 

Jackie Ogilvie

I will I will just put that in there, a wee caveat. At the moment, we are the only Network Rail station in the whole of the UK that does tours. But I know that, the London Underground do take you down underneath into old abandoned stations, but that’s the London Underground. But Network Rail, we are the only station that does formal tours like this and we’re the only one that has a formal museum. At the moment. 

Niall Murphy

Right. 

Jackie Ogilvie

That may change in the future. Plans are afoot to maybe look at expanding that because it is such an interest in it. 

Niall Murphy

Yes. 

Jackie Ogilvie

And it’s Yeah. You know, people want it 

Fay Young

And is is there any sort of pattern? What kind of people are most interested or can you touch hearts and raise curiosit in anyone?

Jackie Ogilvie

So we get a lot of railway enthusiasts who come. But the majority of the people who come on our tour are Glaswegians because Glaswegians love their city and they want to hear about their city and they want to tell hear the stories and they want to tell their story as well to share it with other people. So when they come on the tour, we do a lot of that. We do a lot of, you know, exchanging, of stories and it’s just it’s just wonderful. And it’s mostly mostly Glasgow. There’s a lot of people who come from a lot of other places too. I don’t want to to make it that. We get them a lot of Scottish, from all over Scotland. Paul has done a fabulous job in in bringing it alive and bringing it from just a guy that wanted to do some tours of his beloved station to to being the the business venture that it really is today. 

Niall Murphy

Uh-huh. Yes. 

Fay Young

And a model for others. 

Jackie Ogilvie

Oh, yes. Very much so. Very 

Niall Murphy

much so. Uh-huh. 

Jackie Ogilvie

We’re not perfect, We’re absolutely not perfect. But but, yeah, we could do it elsewhere. Network Rail could recoup some of the you know, make some money out of it. Yeah. Do you want to move on? 

Fay Young

Yes, please. Yes. 

Jackie Ogilvie

So we’ve just come up now from the main concourse. We’re heading up towards where the platforms 14 and 15 are. Just before the police, British Transport Police Office on our right hand side just ahead of us. And we’re just looking at the joining point, if you like, of the old and the new. With platform 9 here is you can see the green pillars. These green pillars with all those fabulous rivets sticking out, which is just wonderful. And that’s the border. That would have been the original 1879. Extension came along and this is from platform 9 out to Hope Street and all the way down to Argyle Street. That was the new part of the station. And you can tell by the roof. And straight girders in the original, arch girders in the extension. Again, this is us talking about Rob Rowand Anderson for the original and James Miller for the extension. So he created the extension here. I think I mean, engineers tell me that these arches are stronger, maybe a bit cheaper because how much finer they are. I think Jimmy Miller was just saying, this is my bit. 

Niall Murphy

I think you’re right. 

Jackie Ogilvie

Because I did this. He wanted it to be distinct. 

Niall Murphy

Yeah. I think so. I think they’re a lot more elegant, I really like them because they’re so handsome. Straws are chunky and strong. Yes. And you know they’re doing a job. Yes. These are much more delicate by comparison. 

Jackie Ogilvie

Yes. Absolutely. I really like 

Niall Murphy

them too. I really like the contrast Yes. 

Jackie Ogilvie

In this. It is. It is wonderful. And the block the big blonde pillars here. 

Niall Murphy

Yes. Yeah. The whole way that it’s kind of the one connection to the other is so elegant beyond. Yes. It’s So really nice.

Fay Young

Those huge arch windows 

Jackie Ogilvie

But people come through here all the time and they they don’t even notice it. And then once once once you’ve seen it, you can’t unsee it.  You will wait a minute. We’ll wait a minute. 

Fay Young

Uh-huh. Uh-huh. I wish you’d not 

Jackie Ogilvie

How come I’ve never seen that before? 

Fay Young

Yeah. Absolutely. 

Niall Murphy

So and then you got the helienmens umbrella as well, which is again, really elegantly handled. 

Jackie Ogilvie

Absolutely. That’s 

Niall Murphy

such a huge bridge in the, you know, the heart of the city. And it could be quite, 

Jackie Ogilvie

ugly. Thank 

Niall Murphy

you. It’s probably near really beautiful. You did. 

Jackie Ogilvie

That was William Arnold. 

Niall Murphy

Yes. That 

Jackie Ogilvie

So this is carriage drive here. So this is just in front of the BTP police office here and the old road that came up. As I said earlier, this is where you would have come up, no charges, it was great. You came up here, you picked up your granny right off the train and straight back down. So in the original days, the taxis on the trip would come up or your car would come up and you would drive down the back of where today we’ve got Marks and Spencers and Boots and out onto, right out onto Gordon Street. Today, restricted access for emergency vehicles, access that we need as a station to operate. And above the arch, you can see the Coat of Arms dThey f the Caledonia and Railway Company. Carved stone. And the sad thing about this arch being tucked away in here now is nobody gets to see that anymore. But we have a on the the the tour, we have a mural of the coat of arms. And it’s lovely, but it’s nothing like what you can see today.  And if you really started looking. We have the cathedral windows out onto Hope Street again. This was we believe maybe James Miller was influenced by, Isambard Kingdom Brunel when he had designed his Bristol Temple Meads. Bristol Temple Meads became known as the Cathedral to the steam train. So to the Iron Horse.  And these beautiful cathedral windows, again, they let so much light in.

Niall Murphy

They really do

Jackie Ogilvie

But again, people just walk past them and just take them for granted. Because we don’t have that on the east side.

Engineering, is a big part of central station as well. The buffers here, we have some original and we have some modern. If you go to platform 14/15, you’re up there. You’ll see a very different set of buffers than what we’ve got here at platform 10 and 11. Original from, we believe, the extension in 1906. These buffers here can stop a 400 ton train travelling at 12 miles per hour within 7 feet. They are powered by water. Problem with water is it’s got quite a high freezing temperature so they have their own central heating system to ensure that they don’t freeze. However, back in the late 1990s I think the late 1990s, apologies if that date is wrong, Somebody turned off the heating. 

Niall Murphy

Not during that really bad winter.  

Jackie Ogilvie

Couldn’t have chosen the worst time to do it. So, yes, they turned them off and they froze and they were some of them cracked. Right. So the plant had to be repaired, But the majority of them are still original. I believe it was the front parts that cracked. So 

Niall Murphy

Right. 

Jackie Ogilvie

But an incredible piece and it really is.

Niall Murphy

The the Clyde froze over it was like minus 27 or something

Jackie Ogilvie

Couldn’t have picked a last year to turn off heat. 

Niall Murphy

Now we’re gonna step through a door and Jackie, who will be taking us behind the scenes, will take us down a set of escape stairs that will take us all the way below to the mysterious vaults that are at the heart of the station below the main concourse. 

Jackie Ogilvie

So we’ve arrived just outside, the museum. We’re now 2 floors down from the concourse. Mhmm. So I’m not gonna say 2 floors down from street level because we’re not 

Niall Murphy

Probably about street level now. Yeah. Which is But we’re 2 floors down. It makes you realise how built up the concourse is.

Jackie Ogilvie

So yeah. It’s built up and and also Hope Street’s on on a bit of a slope. When I first came here, one of the things that I really wanted to get was one of the old departure boards. They resonate with the people of Glasgow because of a certain generation. I always say it’s anybody over 27, but that’s just because I’m including myself with it. So anybody who came in and frequented the station pre 1986 would remember these because this is how you found your way to your train. We didn’t have electronic boards. Nobody had electronic boards. It wasn’t just central. Nobody had electronic boards back then. So I was keen to get them. And difficult to come by, well, there’s plenty of them, but those that have them want to keep them. So until the Haughey family who own Glasgow Salvage and Paisley. They very kindly offered me this middle one on loan, and I grabbed it with both hands. Then Irene, who lives in the West End, her daughter contacted me to say that Irene had a couple of them lying in her garage. Did I want them? Irene’s late mother and herself had purchased these from British Rail when we changed over. So at that point, British Rail was selling pieces off so the public could come in and buy bits. I mean, they were selling all sorts. Departure boards were very, very, very, very in demand, shall we say. They sold well. They paid £7 and £7.50, and I’ve got all the original paperwork for them as well. So I then wanted to display them. I wanted to hopefully evoke some of these memories and the emotions that these bring. And our wonderful station joiner, Greg, he created this all from old photographs because Greg is just a young man and wasn’t born in by 1986. So so this is this is just it’s just wonderful. And people love it. People who come just love it because, again, it takes them back in time to maybe when they were young, waiting in the station to get on their train. So during the tours, a number of months ago, a lady, probably last year, There’s a lady on Paul’s tour. And as I said to you just a moment ago, emotions come when you see these things that bring back your memories of when you were younger and maybe better times. And a woman was on the tour, and she was she was very, you know, emotive at this point. And she said to Paul, I’ve got something, and I’m gonna bring it in for you. Mhmm. And what she handed in was a 36 inch wooden ruler. Mhmm. Now it’s no ordinary 36 inch wooden ruler because this belonged to a man called Sandy Moffat. Mhmm. And Sandy Moffat back in the day was Glasgow Central Station’s sign writer. Right. One of Glasgow Central Station sign writers. So there is a really good chance he is the man that painted by hand all of these boards and he used the ruler. 

Niall Murphy

Isn’t it? 

Jackie Ogilvie

This ruler here. Yeah. And I just love that story because 

Niall Murphy

You can see the 

Jackie Ogilvie

you can see the things back. Yeah. Yeah. You can see all the lines where he’s used it. The ruler, it’s fantastic. 

Niall Murphy

Here we go! 

Fay Young

Ooh! 

Jackie Ogilvie

Welcome to the museum Welcome to the museum. This is what I spent my time doing. 

Niall Murphy

I think it’s fantastic. You’ve done such a phenomenal job with this. 

Jackie Ogilvie

This is what I spent my time doing during the lockdown. 

Niall Murphy

Uh-huh. 

Jackie Ogilvie

When I first came here, I was asked to create a museum, but it was just an empty room, completely empty. There were about 1 or 2 bits and pieces lying about in the station. And then we started to pull them together. In my previous roles, one of the key points of my role when I worked in banking was networking. When I came to Network Real, I was really at a disadvantage because I didn’t know anybody. Mhmm. So I made it my business to start networking Mhmm. Because I couldn’t do what was that I’d been asked to do without Yeah. A lot of people’s help. One of the first people that I contacted was Norry Gilliland a lovely young man who wrote Glasgow’s forgotten village all about the Grahamston story. And we met here. And he told me about these boards, which detail so much of Grahamston’s story. And he said he’d use them to launch his book at the Mitchell library and he said I think they’re just lying in a cupboard somewhere you know not getting you you may want to ask. So I met with Duncan Dornan. Duncan Dornan is the man who’s in charge of all the museums and libraries in in Glasgow. And he very very kindly arranged for these boards to be gifted, down to ourselves, and it’s just wonderful. When I first got them, I I kinda was saying to people, and this saved me an awful lot of work. It didn’t save me an awful lot of work. I would never have done as much work as this. You know? I wouldn’t have done half of this. This is a fabulous fabulous addition. 

Niall Murphy

It really is. 

Jackie Ogilvie

And it’s wonderful that it’s been brought out the cupboard and everybody’s been able to see it. Yeah. I just like that it’s we brought it from the depths of the archives and the Mitchell Library to them. So, yes. So so Norrie’s boards were wonderful. And again, the the maintenance team and the station, they, created the boards and and did did all of this to try and display them as best we could. And of course, there’s 2 two buildings left from Grahamston. There’s lots of stories about cobble streets down underneath, and shop fronts and all the rest of it. That’s not true. Sadly. Sadly. It’s not true. It’s not true. However, what was what is the Rennie Mackintosh Hotel opened in about 1800. So we don’t have any 1600s at Grahamston stuff. We have 1800s opened originally as a Duncan’s Temple and then down just round the corner and onto Argyle Street, we have the Grant Arms, and they are both roundabout 1800s, but they are original. Grahamston buildings, and that’s really all that’s left of Grahamston. 

Niall Murphy

Yes. 

Jackie Ogilvie

Yeah. Because everything else 

Niall Murphy

We helped with 

Jackie Ogilvie

with the Yes. They did. 

Niall Murphy

Conservation of it. So so there was a lot 

Jackie Ogilvie

of conservation done down on that building during lockdown, wasn’t it? 

Niall Murphy

Yeah. It was. Yeah. 

Jackie Ogilvie

Because I was concerned at first, and then I realised it was actually somebody doing something to keep it. 

Niall Murphy

Great to get up close because I had to inspect it also. 

Jackie Ogilvie

And they do celebrate it. Yeah. 

Niall Murphy

They’ve done a fantastic job on it. 

Jackie Ogilvie

So a really interesting completely away from architecture, but a really interesting story about the Grant Adams. Part of Scottish legal system is a thing called the Moorov doctrine. Yes. The Moorov doctrine is where so in Scotland, you must have corroboration. We’re not like England down south. You must have a corroborating witness for any crime to have been committed except. So back in the day, above the Grant Adams up here, there’s a tailors. And the tailor employed young women seamstresses, lots of them. And they came and they went and they came and they went. And the young lady went to the police because he was being inappropriate with her. And they said, well, do you have any witnesses? No. We don’t have any witnesses. And then another young lady went to the police and said he was being inappropriate. Mhmm. Mhmm. And several then went And it went to the high courts the courts of land and they introduced what was called the Moorov doctrine. He was Moorov was the man’s name. He was the tailor. And it was where you had so now in Scotland, whilst we look for corroboration normally under the more of doctrine, what you can have is this is a very simple explanation, by the way. I’m not a legal mind at all. But this is a simple is that you can have multiple people telling you the same thing with the same details about the same person. And that becomes that whilst they went there when each crime was committed, they are telling you that the same thing has happened. And that’s called the Moorov doctrine. And that all happened in the Grant Arms. 

Niall Murphy

I’m off 

Jackie Ogilvie

the Grant Arms. So Yeah. Yeah. 

Niall Murphy

Yeah. That’s a Yes. Yeah. Another weak story. Scottish Scottish legal precedent, 

Jackie Ogilvie

which 

Niall Murphy

is, yeah, really, really interesting. 

Jackie Ogilvie

Yes. 

Niall Murphy

I think that’s again, that’s a world first, that one. 

Jackie Ogilvie

Yes. It is. Yeah. Absolutely. But then, Glasgow is always a a leader. Cutting edge city. Absolutely. Always. Always. Always. So one of the things that I thought you might be interested in is our station masters. Station masters of Glasgow Central Station was a very prestigious job, very prestigious. I mean, to be a station master anyway was good, but to get central station, ah, you made it. You’ve done it. You were right at the top of the tree. So when I started, I thought it might be quite good to try and find out more about the station masters. I was kind of half hearted going into it. Just touching and looking and finding. And if something landed on my lap, I was okay. And then so what I didn’t know was about a man here called, we have a photograph in the museum of him, and his name is Thomas Allison. He was here from 1903 to 1919. That man there took the station through the 1st World War. 

Niall Murphy

Wow. 

Jackie Ogilvie

That must have been quite some job. Yeah. And remembering back in the day, the station master would have been responsible for everything in the station. So took it through the world war. So I knew about Thomas Allison. I knew where he was buried. I knew he’d lost one of his sons in one of the wars. Knew a bit about him. I’ve got his work history. Knew all about that. So I thought, I know a bit about him. And then I also knew about a man called I got told about a man called John Gibson. John Gibson was here for a year, only a year. He was station master, and he died up in the tracks. He was responsible for shunting work, supervising shunting, and he it was a very dense fog. Add to that all the steam and the steward and the muck for the steam locals, and he stepped out of the way of 1 engine right into the track of another. And he was killed up on the tracks. Right. He died the following day. But my grandfather’s name was John Gibson. 

Niall Murphy

Right. 

Jackie Ogilvie

Not the same John Gibson. My brother’s name is John Gibson. 

Niall Murphy

Right. 

Jackie Ogilvie

Guess what? I was hooked. Yeah. I can imagine. Oh no. I need I need to do more. So I then found out about Robert Scorgi a man who I have his walking cane all inscribed. And he was here between 1922 and 1937 and I started digging a little bit more I subscribed to old newspapers to do some research and I now have I then ended up with every station master from George Farquharson when we opened our doors right through to 1944, a man called Thomas Tinning in 1944. Thomas Tinning came, and and it almost came out it almost came to an end, and I couldn’t get any information about him. I saw his appointment, didn’t see anything else, and really struggled to find anything else during my research. I think he was I thought he was kind of maybe found out that he might be buried in Lanark, but, hey ho, I’m not sure. And it really became quite demoralising because everybody else didn’t know how well we stayed here or anything. But when I was doing more research and more research, I so I kind of parked it. But one of the things I found out was that Thomas Allison, the man I thought I knew so much about, just a wee tiny snippet in the newspaper, and I saw a wee bit about him that he traveled back to his father. His father owned a farm in West Lothian. The farm was called Parkhead Farm. I went to Parkhead Primary School Uh-huh. Which is built on Parkhead Farm in West Lothian. 

Niall Murphy

It’s a small world. 

Jackie Ogilvie

I think there is greater power. Yeah. Absolutely. It was meant to be. I think it was meant to be. It was I I could not believe. He was born less than a mile from where I was born. Yeah. So I was born in the house, not in in the hospital. So I I was absolutely taken aback, but still frustrated with the, Thomas Tinnings thing. And then last October 2023, I went and hollered and came back to an email, an email from a gentleman who lives in Inverness. And he says, Jackie, I’m coming down. I don’t know where everybody gets my email with it. It must be floating about in the system somewhere. I’m coming down to do the tour on Wednesday. And I just wonder if you would like some stuff that I’ve got. It belonged to my grandfather. My grandfather used to be the station master of Glasgow Central Station, and his name was Thomas Tinning. Oh my heavens above. I was jumping up and down. And they all thought I was mad. But this is something that so what I now have and I have it on display here is a photograph an etching of Thomas Tinning man with the top hat there. I also have his gold watch. I also have newspaper cuttings telling me more about the story of this man and he was I believe he was the last station master. 

Niall Murphy

Right. 

Jackie Ogilvie

After that, it became station manager. So was it a 

Fay Young

very different culture when you had a station master? How always 

Jackie Ogilvie

the relation with the rest of it? Yes. If you look at any of the photographs of station masters, they were quite stern looking, you know, and very, very authoritarian. And they they wore a long black coat, a top hat, and they usually had a walking cane. There’s Robert walking cane. So so we have a walk and they would strut about, but they were responsible for everything. So you think about the station today, we have Drew Burns, who’s our network rail. He runs the station. He’s responsible for the security of the station, the efficient running of the station. Then we have Kat McGee, who is she’s the ScotRail manager for the station. She manages the trains. We have an Avanti manager. We’ve got all the so the train operating companies are very They have 

Niall Murphy

their managers. 

Jackie Ogilvie

Right. So they have their own managers. Drew manages the station itself, the building, the infrastructure, and the security of the station, and all the maintenance that goes along with it. Whereas back in the day, stationmaster would have that, plus all the trains, plus all the shunting, plus all everything. Everything that would have been underneath. So quite incredible. Mhmm. 

Fay Young

I’m just looking at that board there. 

Jackie Ogilvie

The I know. The vital statistics at the station and and 111,000 passengers every day. Yep. That’s That’s amazing, isn’t it? So I’ve just confirmed what our our statistics are just now. So we’re back up to maybe about on average daily, about 80 to 90,000, which which is good because we were way, way down post COVID. I was gonna say. So the weekends tend to be very busy. Right. You know, we’re we’re back up to where we were at the weekends, but not so much, not so much through the week. Still needing to get up a wee bit further. Working from home is the the Yeah. Frustration for us. A real problem for the city centre. 

Fay Young

It is. It is. I 

Niall Murphy

mean, it’s it’s it’s like a catch twenty three. Glasgow’s got a really good commuter network. So it means you can work from home relatively easily. Yes. And that’s gone against the city centre. All those people who would have come into the city centre, a lot of them are now working from home. Yes. And that is putting the city centre kind of, the economy of the city centre under pressure. 

Jackie Ogilvie

Absolutely. And and and the rail was just part of it. Yeah. This is a kilt. A kilt made from the kilt. 

Niall Murphy

Made from railway tickets. Love it. 

Fay Young

Fabulous. Very nice. 

Niall Murphy

That is fabulous. Great fun. 

Fay Young

But isn’t it weird the effect of COVID and lockdown? What was your work like here? What what were you It was like 

Jackie Ogilvie

a ghost town when we came in to begin with. I missed it dreadfully. I missed the interaction. Mhmm. The human the human points. Yeah. I mentioned to you earlier, I’ve always worked with people. Yeah. People are what make me get up in the morning. Yeah. People coming on the tour help me get through my day, make my day better for meeting them. And I really, really miss that. Mhmm. And I came back to work and I thought I think I was given the the option to to retrain, to to do some of the stuff that was going on upstairs and or work on with the museum. And I am so glad that the option that I was you know, I took the option to work in the museum. It was the right decision for me and for the station and the tours. I’m glad I did that. The museum just started to come together. And it is that I have to say at times at the beginning, I kept thinking, I don’t know how I had all these ideas, lots of ideas, but bringing them to fruition was a challenge, to say the least. And getting things done, getting the pieces that you needed to fill this room, I mean, to begin with, it was very empty. And then I started doing re extra bits, you know, and then something would come. I think when the penny dropped, I thought we could absolutely do the museum. The clocks. Mhmm. The big clocks that we have, which were they’re not that old, maybe 50, sixties at the very oldest because because the the face is covered with perspex, not glass. Mhmm. So that allows us to age it much younger than we would have liked it to have been. But we had all these clocks and we managed to get the I say we. I just nagged and nagged, and I was the pusher, and and got the maintenance team, Our maintenance team in central station, they’ve helped me do my job. Without them, we wouldn’t have a museum. It would be a pile of old stuff in the middle of the room. So the museum is as much theirs as mine. And they managed to help get the clocks working. And then I went off for a few days. And I came back. And they had put them up. And I was extremely emotional coming in. Because at that point, I thought this is a big step forward. Then getting the boards for Grahamston, then the railings. We found these railings, which Railway Heritage believed them to be probably original to 1901, 1906. And And we found them just leaning up against the wall somewhere in the station. Heavy as well. Well, because on your I kept thinking everything else has been everything else has gone. Everything else has gone to the scrappy to get money for it or whatever. I’m speculating it. Probably not, but everything had gone, and these were still there. And I couldn’t understand why. And then we tried to move them. And we realised. And it took 3 men and a huge, big trolley to bring these from where we found them in one of the corridors to here and they are just and then the guys again they put them up here They frame the clocks. They absolutely, you know, they just yeah. They set that off. 

Niall Murphy

They’re so elegant. So they’re really, 

Jackie Ogilvie

really accordion. And and I’ve had people on the tour who do this for a living. You know, they do iron work, and they said, what is there is very, very difficult. It’s very intricate for Iron work to achieve. 

Niall Murphy

Yeah. 

Jackie Ogilvie

Yeah. As a very skilled person, it’s nice. 

Fay Young

Yeah. Such pride in producing something. Absolutely. 

Jackie Ogilvie

Yep. So lots of bits and pieces, some which we know what they are, some not so much. A lot of telecom stuff, a lot of blueprints and, you know. 

Niall Murphy

But then telecom stands. So why, John will Logie Baird , you know Absolutely. Had had, you know, did his experiment from Central Station Hotel because you had the straight run all the way down to London. Yes. So he could, you know, he could prove it, and then he could they could get the message back saying it was working 

Jackie Ogilvie

or not. I think it was 1926 he sent from London to Glasgow Central Station Hotel the very first television signal. Yeah. And it was on in black and white. It was on a very small screen. Yes. But it was the first. Yes. And I just wonder what would make of what we’ve got today. 

Niall Murphy

I know. Yeah. Absolutely. 

Jackie Ogilvie

Yes. I do wonder what it would make of what we’ve got today. It’s quite interesting. One of the things I also did when I came here, and this was really instigated by Susan Holden, who was the station manager at that time was to engage with we wanted to to make this a Glasgow museum, a Glasgow to bring people in, and and work with us. So Glasgow School of Art was a natural choice. So I contacted Glasgow School of Art. Now I’m a great believer in why things happen. It seems to just sometimes be fate. Mhmm. I phoned Glasgow School of Art, and I was speaking to I can’t remember if it was a press office or or it was somebody, you know, in the offices, and I was saying, look. Here’s what we’re thinking about doing. We would like to do a piece, maybe a couple of murals or a piece of art for the museum, for, you know, the tour, and and who do you think? When I was on the phone to them, a young man called Paul Maguire happened to be in the room at the same time. He heard the conversation and he said, I’ll take that. Thank you very much. And the rest, they say, is history because Paul and I have now worked on the 2 murals here. We have plans afoot to do much more. So that will hopefully be coming. Tell you about that when we go down to the Victorian platform. So in the museum here, the mural, the projection onto the wall was created by 20 3rd year students who were 3rd year in 2019. Right. And I just said to them, I’ve got a big white wall. Gonna fill it, please. Something about the station. It was a very loose brief, but that was the first time, these group of students had ever had a real customer. It was giving them great experience for going out into the real world. So I had a budget. I had, you know, a kind of a spec of what I wanted Yeah. And where the location and what you could deal with and you’re the subject matter. And that allowed them to to almost create a contract and deal Yeah. A customer. I was their customer. And they did it. And I think it’s wonderful. I think it’s absolutely wonderful. And the music, I think, is just, just fabulous. Yes. 

Fay Young

Reading the reports of of how this work developed, there seemed to be a real emotional connection with the work, with, especially the wartime memories, and, Paul Maguire, seemed to be really 

Jackie Ogilvie

Paul Maguire, I think his piece when we talk about the 1st World War, I think his piece there it just I don’t know what to say because I just think it really it nails it. It absolutely nails it. It personalises what we’re talking about. It kind of makes it more real to the people of Glasgow. Should we go and have a look at it? Yes. Of course. Come on. 

Fay Young

The door opens and closes as we move from the museum into a really different space. It’s dark and silent, and we’re standing in front of a wall where the names of the fallen flicker in white on black. These are the names of the 17,000 soldiers who died in the First World War. It’s a very simple display which constantly changes with the names of the fallen alongside their street addresses, and that’s what seems to stir very powerful emotions in the people who stand here and look. So when we came when I came here, we did have, like, the stretcher and the World War I wheelchair and what have you, but that was it. There was nothing here except the history of at the beginning, the very early days of World War I, this was used as a temporary mortuary. It would be a bit of a mixture of soldiers who were brought home because of repatriation, which only lasted for a very brief time, I believe. But there would be a huge amount of soldiers who would arrive here who were coming home sick, alive, but died en route but they would arrive here. Very really, Paul and I both had a really strong feeling about creating something here. I didn’t know what we wanted. I knew how I wanted to feel, but I didn’t want I didn’t know. I’m not an arty person. I actually didn’t even know what was available. And then when Paul Maguire came along, and he started talking about, you know, a moving mural, a line. You know, this this kind of thing. And this was new to me. I I didn’t know you could have done something that’s as creative as this. And and I’ll never forget the 1st day he showed me because we were sat there on a couple of wee stools, and he had his laptop. And he showed me it. And and I showed it on just on a small screen. And whenever I saw it, I I knew I knew then Mhmm. It was exactly what we needed and exactly the right thing to be here, which was just it was just wonderful. And so huge, huge thanks to Paul Maguire. And we’re going to do some more work with them. And we’ve already got stuff in the pipeline. So but I’ll tell you about when we get there. 

Niall Murphy

It’s just The street names? Yes. Funny, it’s not the individual names. It’s the street names. Because you recognise the streets. Because the streets you walked at so you have a kind of connection with the streets, and then you’re thinking that somebody who is so young lost their life. I I just find that really emotional and 

Jackie Ogilvie

Yeah. I I think it makes it makes it our list. Yeah. Our city’s list as opposed to an anonymous list. 

Niall Murphy

I have seen my own street in this. Oh, right. Oh, that’s my street. 

Jackie Ogilvie

And it changes all the time. 

Niall Murphy

So young would have died. 

Fay Young

It’s it’s so simple, but the silence is also really effective, isn’t it? Just seeing Very much. The names standing 

Jackie Ogilvie

And that just runs all the time. It’s on a loop. And it just from the 7 it’s a database of the 17,696 that lost their life, and and then it just pulls them out Right. At random. It’s a random program that just brings different ones. Yeah. So you could stand here all day. I see my surname on it. I’ve only seen it a couple of times, and I’m down here all the time. So it’s different people all the time coming through. Some names do come up. You see them. They do come up more often. 

Niall Murphy

And Watson, Saint Andrews Road, Pollokshields . 

Jackie Ogilvie

But yeah. But all the addresses are the Glasgow addresses. So when we’re coming down here, you have to remember in the station that so good trains would come into the station quite a lot back in the day. Goods would come in, and then the goods would need to be dispersed across the station across the city. And of course, that was done by horse and cat. Central station has its own stables. So here we have part of the old stables. So along at the end there, you can see wooden slatted bits there. So apparently that would open and they would put down the feed the horse feed for the horses rather than bring it through all the corridors and bring it down. They would just drop it down, and then that would allow them to feed the horses. So Right. This is some of the stables. And it’s always quite difficult to because you’re looking at this smaller room, but there’s been so many additions that have been added on and done, And so so this is probably not exactly what the stables would have looked like back then, but they’ve been adapted to the needs of the station as as the station’s needs have changed. 

Niall Murphy

Okay. So it’s that floor above this concrete 

Jackie Ogilvie

Yes. Which is 

Niall Murphy

fascinating too. So that would 

Jackie Ogilvie

be because that’s the base of the low level. So that’s a more modern wall, because what the low level’s been renovated and redone when numerous times going through. So this is, believe it or not, the green corridor. We’re we’re very, very creative in the railway when we’re giving names to places. And just for for anybody listening in, it’s painted top to bottom. Good morning. So all these cables, they’re supplying. So some of them are power. Yeah. Some of them are technology. Yeah. Right. But miles upon miles upon miles. Miles. And the reason that they are all on the surface is because they’re all post filled. When the station opened her door, she was just lit by gas. Yeah. She was heated by steam. We had with no appetite whatsoever for electricity. So that’s why when you see all the cabling, it’s not always as visible as it is in this particular corridor, but it is all on the surface. 

Fay Young

It’s the nervous system, isn’t it? Of the station. 

Jackie Ogilvie

I wouldn’t like there to be a fuse blown in any of them. I let them. 

Niall Murphy

Here we go. Thank you. 

Jackie Ogilvie

So of course, we’re now we’ve emerged from a wee door on the side that you’ve maybe all passed a 1000 times, and we’re now in the low level platform 16 and 17. Come on, let’s head through and we’ll get down another set of seats. Can I just get everybody to tuck into the left? And that lets people running for the train get get passed. 

Niall Murphy

So next, Jackie takes us through the small door in the otherwise ordinary corridor that takes you down to the low level platforms. And through this door, you get into a very compressed space and you have to lower your head to step under a beam. And then you’re at the top of the steel stair overlooking this kind of vast, dark, open space. And as you descend into it, gradually, you get to see things like these enormous iron clasp columns that you realize are supporting this kind of huge heavy station above. And this right in the depths of the station is what is going to be the Victorian platform. This is is a treat. 

Fay Young

Oh, she’s in. 

Jackie Ogilvie

I need to lock in stone. 

Niall Murphy

Thank you very much. 

Jackie Ogilvie

Just mind your heads on the second door. We could down the bottom of the stairs and go left. 

Fay Young

I would. Look at that. 

Niall Murphy

I know. Fabulous columns. 

Jackie Ogilvie

So this bit, the view from the top of the stairs here, to me Mhmm. This is the most impressive. And so many people walk right past this as they’re coming down to the Victorian platform and their eagerness to get down. To me, when people stop here, they’re usually engineers or architects. Engineers are architects. 

Niall Murphy

Just the scale of the engineering is something else. 

Jackie Ogilvie

See that there? Uh-huh. That there? That big bit of that column and that big lump of concrete Yep. Is holding up central station. I know. It’s amazing, isn’t it? 

Niall Murphy

I mean, it’s so huge, and it’s it’s the fact that they went all the effort to make it a classically detailed column as well. It’s quite something. It’s beautiful, and yeah. 

Jackie Ogilvie

It is beautiful. So this is very atmospheric down here. The Victorian platform was used right up until 1964. Steam trains would have come through here, and then in ‘sixty four, it closed. That was Beechings cuts again. And it remained closed right up until 1979. And when they reopened pre-sixty four, there was track, platform, track, track, platform, faraway track. And when they opened in ‘seventy 9, they just opened 

Niall Murphy

2 

Jackie Ogilvie

of the track, which is 16 and 17 today, which is just on the other side of the wall that we’re all looking at. So here, it became a closed space. These modern walls, maybe ‘seventy seven, ‘seventy eight, they would be built. And the reason for that was just to make the low level a more manageable space. It was just to keep it tidy, I suppose, and lock this off because it wasn’t being used. And Paul, he managed to find it. I think he was aware of it anyway. And over a period of time, first of all, when they did the tours, you would stand at the top and look through a hole in the wall. Then they cut a doorway in the wall and they had a platform and then we got our lovely Victorian staircase. Yes. Maybe not. It’s a bit harsh, but it meets the requirements for health and safety. Yes. So which is the most important thing down here. So an interesting thing down here, the girders here. Now underneath what you can see there is concrete. Of girders If those if we took that concrete off, that would look like that. Mhmm. And the reason it has concrete on it to protect it from corrosion from the steam trains. Mhmm. So that was the Victorians that did that. Right. Part of the the works that they did on the Argyle line Mhmm. And and COVID, I have lost track of time. I think it’s now 2 years ago Mhmm. When we closed for 3 or 4 months. And part of the work that was done was taking the concrete off all of the the the the the length of the tunnel, the Argyle tunnel. And that’s because they really want to be able to see what’s going on and With the actual 

Niall Murphy

steel work. 

Jackie Ogilvie

With the actual steel work as opposed to having it covered up. Yeah. And not knowing till something goes wrong. 

Niall Murphy

Yeah. Until it starts corroding. Yes. Yep. 

Jackie Ogilvie

A check every year, always pass. Right. These were made to last. 

Niall Murphy

Right. Absolutely. They’re 

Jackie Ogilvie

Absolutely made to last. And and we could I doubt if we could build this station today. Took over 10,000,000 Glasgow bricks to build this station. Mhmm. We’d be able to find 10,000,000 bricks today. 

Niall Murphy

I know. Yeah. 

Jackie Ogilvie

That that would be your first problem. The whole brickwork don’t 

Niall Murphy

we don’t we don’t have, like, a Yeah. 

Jackie Ogilvie

Industrial capacity anymore. 

Fay Young

No. That’s right. 

Jackie Ogilvie

So 16 and 17 is just through there. For a bit of context, when we’re standing looking at the old track bed, this would have been an eastbound line. Out there is the west, so that would be the SEC. Out that way, Argyle Street, that’s north, that’s south. Mhmm. That just gives you a wee feel for your direction because it’s very difficult to keep a handle on. 

Niall Murphy

It is. Yeah. 

Jackie Ogilvie

I mean, really difficult. Yes. And sometimes I’m I think, oh, where where I’m where I’m. You know? It takes a wee minute. I need to be something just to to bring me back into to on track as to where we are. 

Niall Murphy

Absolutely. But the low-level Station would have been very different as well because where that hotel now is the Yotel Yeah. Just to the west, that was actually open. Yes. Because you you had, like, a parade of shops around it, but it was an open well. Yes. So you didn’t have daylight coming into 

Jackie Ogilvie

I kind of when people say to me, what the access for here? So current level, the access was where it is today. And access for here was from our. So where where the hotel is, I tell people you’re you’re using your as a well. I just see it’s a big hole because that’s what when you look at photographs that’s what it looks like and and it it was open so there would be access it would be ventilation would be part of that. Down here also, I’m still researching. I have no idea what it’s going to come out as, but we have a couple of good sidings here. These are ends of good sidings here. So we think that what happened was goods would have come in to the station in wagons, The wagons would be shunted into the sidings, and they would be unloaded and loaded. So they would be taken out the hole or the well, taking out that would be the access point for getting it out again. And we think the piece around the back initially, we did think it might be a ladies waiting room, but It never sat well with me because it’s the wrong side of the track. So it didn’t fit. It’s also much more than I thought. So that’s been storage that’s been warehouse and potentially there would be more access beyond round the back there’s chamber after chamber after chamber under arches all the way to Midland Street and beyond. So it’s quite 

Niall Murphy

It makes sense when you think about the station’s location, the Clyde being so close. You know? You would get goods being unloaded from here and then being taken down to the Clyde to be loaded onto a ship. Mhmm. So that’s what all most of the buildings, certainly, to the south of here, were all big warehouse buildings for that purpose. 

Jackie Ogilvie

Absolutely. And I think it’s important to remember what was here before because when we look now, if we we’ll take a wee wander around the back here. I have some maps right here. And these maps, whilst I love them, they actually make me feel a bit sad. And they make me sad because they are all of our old stations. The 4 main stations, mind your feet on this wee bit. It’s a bit uneven. The 4 main stations in Glasgow, the 4 so central stations, St. Enoch, Queen Street and Buchanan Street. And when you look at the picture of you’re on the map of the station and then look around it, look. Look. 

Niall Murphy

Yeah. So 

Jackie Ogilvie

Industry, manufacturing. We’re making things, millions of things, all different things, and it’s all gone. Yeah. So that makes me sad. 

Niall Murphy

Yes. Yeah. 

Jackie Ogilvie

And then also what made me sad was the fact that I thought Glasgow must must have been very, very poor. Because look, poor house, poor house. Then I remembered we were in Glasgow, it’s public house. And I hate to say it, but most of them are still here today. So this is a good picture of original station, the St. Columba’s Gaelic Church just sitting right there. So that’s what you see what was there and what wasn’t there and all of this. And that’s, of course, how the Hielanman’s umbrella got its name because the highlanders would come out of the church, and they would take their way down somewhere to gather to first of all, to to to get out the rain. Employers would come along and offer them work. They would also come along just just generally to to mingle, to catch up with friends and family, but news maybe a bit back home and also especially to talk Gaelic. Uh-huh. Mhmm. That was one of the big things. So that’s why it’s called the Hielanman’s umbrella. Right. 

Niall Murphy

Fascinating because you had different the entrance was Mhmm. Originally. Yeah. But you had this much 

Jackie Ogilvie

Yeah. 

Niall Murphy

You know, you have this booking hall in the centre where it had 2 passengers either side of it. 

Jackie Ogilvie

And, of course, look how much further forward the tracks are. But then you’ll get the platform in that. Very, very different. I mean, right away, it comes. 

Niall Murphy

And there’s your platforms the other way around. So platform 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, and 9. 

Fay Young

Yeah. And there’s just something very strong and powerful about these lines coming into this. 

Niall Murphy

But it makes you realise why they they would have pulled them back because you get much, much 

Fay Young

more Yes. 

Jackie Ogilvie

Yes. Very much so. Yeah. Very harsh so. And, of course, they added the slope. Mhmm. So, probably you probably maybe maybe have noticed that there is a slope when you come in, and that was James Millers. Very subtle crowd control. Very subtle. It’s very subtle because you don’t always realise it unless you’re lugging a big Yep. Heavy case or what have you. And as you’re walking in, but it’s a slope, so it comes in and it’s cramped through. Level there. Yep. 

Niall Murphy

And by the time you’re out here, you’re kind of looking at the Hielanman’s umbrella. Yeah. You’re 2 stories up. So which is fascinating. It’s so subtle. 

Jackie Ogilvie

But quite incredible. 

Fay Young

So are you planning to develop this 

Niall Murphy

this map. 

Fay Young

Area or 

Jackie Ogilvie

So down here, more maps because everybody loves a map. Probably put up some more maps. What I really want to do because on the tour, we don’t really cater a huge amount for the people who love the technologies or the technical side of the railways, the track, the signalling. We hope this wall here, opposite the maps, to have offcuts of all the different types of tracks that you have, all the bits that you use to make a track, to lay a track. It’s not just a matter of, you know so we’ll get technical people to assist us in annotating that and explaining that to people. So that’s the plan for that side of the wall. I’ve got a lot of stuff, a lot of stuff to be put down here to address it. Yes. We also, hope to bring in a steam locomotive as well. And we hope to lay track on the track out there and bring in a steam locomotive. Although, really, it’s not an easy task. And part of the problem is silting. Right. So in 2002, there was a terrible flood down here. Mhmm. The water was at the levels of those strip lights, okay? So what is that about 10 feet? 

Niall Murphy

Yes. So all this would have been pumped out. 

Jackie Ogilvie

We actually contacted North Sea oil rig people and borrowed or rented their pumps. They drilled holes in Hope Street to come down to all the the water up. I take it they put it back in the Clyde because where else could it go? And and it was something to do with the drainage system. When I look at it, I think it must have been fitted back to front or it just it wasn’t suitable and because the Clyde is tidal. And then when the tide was really high for a particular reason and the water came in. It couldn’t get back out again. So they fixed the problem because we did have a we had a drainage system that wasn’t fit for purpose because it didn’t work properly. It wasn’t allowing the water to escape, and they fixed all of that. It won’t happen again, but it caused a lot of work down here, a lot of lot of issues down here. I can imagine. The low level was closed for for a long time. They they brought that back. Yeah. But they left where we are just now, and that left about 2 to 3 feet of silt. So when we’re looking to bring our locomotive in, we have the the silting is fine because it’s a solid base for us to lay our track, but we have a height differential. And that means we would have to push a 26 and a half ton locomotive up. Help. Help. I don’t think it’s an easy thing to do safely. And it’s all about safety. We think we might have a solution, but we’re waiting to see. Interesting. I hope 

Niall Murphy

that will be so amazing. 

Jackie Ogilvie

It will be. But, initially, what we’re doing now is we are we need to start with fire safety, and that’s our starting point 

Niall Murphy

and 

Jackie Ogilvie

see what we need to do to make it safe to do what we want to do. The school of art have come up with some fabulous, fabulous stuff. So current students work under the stewardship of Paul Maguire again. He has been fabulous, and some of the stuff they’ve come up with is just wonderful. And so because of if we do down here, what we’ll need to it’s gonna have a real impact on the tourism. What we need to do is cut some of the stories from up the stairs. We just can’t accommodate that in the day or in the time of the tour. So the plan will be that we cut the stories from up there, but we give access to that information down here. And he’s come up with a thing called a Pepper’s ghost. So it’s it’s augmented reality, and some of the Victorian invention that was done by lights, but we are going to use iPads or tablets, and it might be myself or Paul narrating the stories or you know, that we’ve cut from up the stairs and the QR codes to get behind all of that. 

Niall Murphy

Right. 

Jackie Ogilvie

So give people still give them the information, but not not delivering it there and then taking up their time. And then you can tailor that then to the people that want to hear about that in particular. The trouble’s gonna be telling what’s what we need to cut out. That’s, you know, that’s a lot of the the stuff that we need to cut out. So so so that’s future. 

Fay Young

Unless it’s like layers, like you’ve got in the station, you know, you go for down to different parts. You you reach Yeah. The underground eventually. 

Jackie Ogilvie

It’s just it’s an incredible, incredible building. 

Niall Murphy

Mhmm. It really is. Still my favourite in Glasgow. 

Fay Young

Yeah. What a wonderful project for Glasgow School of Art students. 

Jackie Ogilvie

Oh, they they’re just great, and they’re so enthusiastic. They are and and I have to say, I am as I’ve said earlier, I am not an arty person. I’m not these people are so creative, and they do it, you know that’s why they go to that school, obviously, but it comes to them, and and you think, how did you think of that? So I am I’m in great admiration for these lovely students that I think will definitely go on and do great things. And whilst it’s a local school, there are people from all over the world attending that school Yeah. And having a part Yes. An influence on part of Central Station. How fabulous is that? Absolutely. 

Fay Young

But the way you tell the stories, the way you connect with it will also be a great inspiration to them. 

Jackie Ogilvie

I hope so. It’s I often get told I should be on the stage. Paul is the same. And what you have to remember is what I’ve shown people when they come around here. I don’t have once you come underneath yes. We have a fabulous structure up the stairs, but once you come underneath, it’s brickwork arches. It’s not an awful lot. I don’t have beautiful paintings on the walls. I don’t have, you know, wonderful statues. What we have are stories, and it’s the stories that bring it alive. It’s the human element. It’s the human element. Yeah. And that’s what people relate to. That’s why this tour is so popular. Yeah. It’s It’s not because we’ve got the best building well well, we do have the best building. But it’s not because we have the most striking building on I don’t know whatever In every place. 

Fay Young

Yes. In every part of it. 

Jackie Ogilvie

It is. It’s the stories. Yeah. And everybody can relate to all of these stories at some point. So they might not relate to all of the stories, but they will relate to some of them. Yeah. And that’ll continue if we keep telling the stories. Yeah. 

Niall Murphy

Thank you very much. Thank you. Absolute pleasure. Okay. And finally then, and this is a question we ask everybody who comes on the podcast, what is your favourite building in Glasgow, and what would it tell you if it’s walls could talk? 

Jackie Ogilvie

Obviously, my favourite building is Central Station. But if we take that out of the equation, it would be it’s a really a strange reason for having this. It’s a building that I never ever saw much of, but it’s the old stock exchange building on the corner of Nelson Mandela Place and Buchanan Street. It’s where the Lush shop is. It’s up above that, and it’s all the beautiful colours of the brickwork and and the detailing of the brickwork, and I just think that was, you know, the foundation of all the industry that was going on at the time. I just think that’s really an interesting building. And what frustrates the hell out of me is most people don’t even see it. So I think if I could talk, it would tell us what it was like back then, what the trade was like, and and that would give you a real insight into the social history because the trade was what drove people’s jobs, people’s lifestyles, everything. So it would have so much to tell you. 

Speaker 5

Glasgow City Heritage Trust is an independent charity and grant funder that promotes the understanding, appreciation, and conservation of Glasgow’s historic built environment. Do you want to know more? Have a look at our website at glasgowheritage.org.uk and follow us on social media at Glasgow Heritage. This podcast was produced by Inner Ear for Glasgow City Heritage Trust and is sponsored by Tunnock’s.