Luna Amanita

So we’re in Parkhead, which, is in East Glasgow and one of the poorest parts of Glasgow. And we get volunteers from our local area, but we also, like, we do get volunteers from, say, Dennistoun or Southside and, like, there’s a broad demographic of kind of service users, I guess, and and people who want to engage with the space. And, like, yeah, like I mentioned, like, maybe there’s different interests, there’s different capacity, there’s different ability. Like, we’re trying to be more responsive to that because, yeah, like, the gardening and food production orientated sessions are great, but there’s a job to do.

Fay Young

Hello. Fay Young here, and I’d love to take Niall with me to the wash house garden, which was my first opportunity to get out into the real world with this podcast. But if Glasgow’s Walls Could Talk, were there amongst some interesting old walls. And Niall, I was thinking how much you could add to the setting in terms of your knowledge of, wash houses perhaps.

Niall Murphy

Well, I’d I’d have loved to have been there particularly given my, wearing my Govanhill Baths Building Preservation Trust hat because, obviously, we’re kind of in charge of helping to restore the what was Glasgow’s largest steamy.

So, yeah, I’m very interested in, you you know, steamy architecture and also the kind of the amazing social history aspect of the steamy, which is what Govanhill Baths are trying to record. All that fantastic working class social history, which, you know, is at risk of it getting lost. And so we are very interested to hear how you go on.

Fay Young

So today, we have a real spring treat, and the weather has even been quite kind. We’d like to take you on a real life visit to the wash house garden in the east end of Glasgow.

Fay Young

I’m here with Luna Aminata. A co director of the Pioneering Community Enterprise, which is bringing new life to a piece of land behind the old Parkhead wash house. The steamy was once a vital part of the local community, and now we’re going to discover how this it’s half acre of garden?

Luna Amanita

Half an acre, yeah.

Fay Young

Yeah. It’s bringing local people together again with a revitalizing sense of purpose. Luna, would you like to lead us around?

Luna Amanita

Yeah. Sure.

Fay Young

Where should we start?

Luna Amanita

Maybe we should start right at the bottom of the dugout and and work our way the people come in.

Fay Young

So this this piece of land, what was it before?

Luna Amanita

Yeah. So it’s an interesting one. We believe it was the steamy the drying ground for the steamy the wash house, way back, and have heard from people who’ve been in this area for a long time that it was used as a food growing space, during the war. Right. We haven’t been able to verify that, but it’s quite a nice idea that we’re tapping into this heritage Yeah.

For food production. More recently, it was set up by the local housing association as a more typical community garden. And then it was taken on and trying to transform from that into its current state, 6 years ago.

Fay Young

Wow.

Luna Amanita

And, yeah, it was turned from a community garden into a more market garden set up. So we are standing at the foot of the garden and there’s 10, beds that just start running along the floor and

Fay Young

Almost like a runway, aren’t they? Long beds.

Luna Amanita

That’s yeah. Yeah. Like, ton runways, of yeah. Bed’s about a 100 foot, and this is the most market gardeny part of the garden, because what we do here is, like, intensely cultivate crops and have, like, a strict, crop rotation. So, we grow, like, a wide variety of vegetables, and as soon as they’re kind of ready to harvest, we’ll be getting them out of the ground, and then we’ll be putting in the next thing.

So we’re at quite limited space, but we want to maximize the space we do have Right. To grow as much food as we can.

Fay Young

I saw that you’ve got some grapes. Oh, yes. Broad beans. That was, but what is this stuff lurking under the ground?

Luna Amanita

So we’re recording in mid April, so it’s quite early for for us. But in a month’s time, this whole space is gonna be really very green and planted out. At the moment, we’ve got broad beans, we’ve just sown carrots last week, shallots, and I think we’ve also done turnips in this section.

Fay Young

The ground looks very nice. You keep it, well mulched, do you, or composted?

Luna Amanita

Yes. Exactly. We describe ourselves as eco ecological. So our ethos is kind of restoring soil, and promoting soil health over time. So we add in as much organic material as we can that we compost here on-site.

And then recently, the last couple of years, we’ve been ordering in more compost to top up the the site as well. Actually, we don’t have road access here, so, like, getting all the compost into the site has been the labour of the last month or so

Fay Young: So what do you do, because you have quite a narrow path up from the main road

Luna Amanita: Barrels. Yeah. I think we probably did 10 ton bags of compost.

Fay Young: Ten ton bags.

Luna Amanita: Yeah. So we’re

Fay Young

That’s hefty.

Luna Amanita

Yes. Or achy, one or the other. Oh, gosh. And then, yeah, as I mentioned, this place will soon be very green and like we’ll be growing lots of different things. We’ll do like a lot of radishes early in the season, salad, is really like a a winner for us.

Lots of more beans, like, especially French beans. Basically, if you can grow it in Scotland, or in Glasgow, I should say, then we do try. Because of the limits on the amount of space we have, we don’t tend to do a lot of, potatoes and onions or things that are

Fay Young

Yeah.

Luna Amanita

Quite space intensive. But other than that, we’re pretty diverse in what we’ve heard.

Fay Young

Yeah. You’re very impressive. So I’m just trying to work out, are we Is that south facing?

Luna Amanita

Yeah. That’s south.

Fay Young

Yeah. And you’ve got the wall, so it it’s feeling quite warm in here. So when the sun is shining, it’s it’s quite a a gentle benign growing condition.

Luna Amanita

It’s reasonably sheltered, which is really handy for us. Yes. There’s a wall on on the south side, and buildings all around. As a market garden, that is really very helpful. And, like, if you ever visit, historic market gardens, they’ll have, like, a reasonably high wall all around them, because, like, we do you do wanna keep the wind out as much as you can.

That being said, because if we got this quite tall southern wall and, like, tall flats around us, it doesn’t mean we don’t get a lot of sun in the off season. That’s one of our challenges, but, you know, we do have you know, it’s also a benefit to have the wall. So it’s

Fay Young

Yeah.

Luna Amanita

Right. Shall we move on?

Fay Young

Speed on.

Luna Amanita

We could go up this this way. On my right, I’m just walking past some black foreign, hawthorn trees, bushes, some raspberries. So we planted up this bed, which was in rotation with with the other beds here until last winter, and with at which point we planted up with perennial plants. So this is a bit more what you might call permaculture design.

Fay Young

That’s fine.

Luna Amanita

The idea being that, yeah, these plants will be in here for much longer and they’ll establish and, in some ways, be, like, much lower maintenance. And just going past the cherry tree, which has pretty gorgeous, white blossoms just now, and some rhubarb.

Fay Young

Nice tree

Luna Amanita

Yes. Yeah. Yeah.

So we got bees here, and I don’t think they need to go much further than our garden for for their foraging. Absolutely. They also help us by pollinating our crops. And now we’ve come to a wider section of, what we just call our food forest. So like like the bed I was just describing, this is more, grown in along permaculture principles.

So we’ve got a couple of fruit trees, couple of apple trees, and and plum, And it’s not as intensive to, kind of, work this style of growing. And you can, like, let there be weeds because in this context, you know, they’re not weeds. They’re just part of the, you know, the canopy of growth.

Fay Young

And already, you’ve got a colour in here with the honesty flowers

Luna Amanita

and The honesty. The dandelions.

Fay Young

Yes. Which, are are full of life, aren’t they? And and, forget me nots.

Luna Amanita

Forget me nots, I think. Yes. In between the dead nettles

Fay Young

And is this

Luna Amanita

This is oregano.

Fay Young

Oregano. That one. Isn’t that lovely? Lovely big spread of it.

Luna Amanita

Yeah. It’s kinda lower input for us. It does mean we don’t get as much yield as the, kind of, more classic market garden setup. But it’s gorgeous. It’s better for the ecosystems, because we’re not uprooting the plants that they wanna live in or disturbing the soil at all, really.

And a kind of broad, long term aim is to move more into this style

Fay Young

Uh-huh.

Luna Amanita

Of gardening and and food production. Yeah. I think especially in the community context, it makes sense to have something like this where, you know, you could, there’s other places in the city that will grow fruit trees, and then anyone can just come and collect the produce. And I think, yeah, that’s kind of something that we’re interested in kind of expanding here.

Fay Young

There’s a there’s a different mood even in, you know, a small space. There’s a different mood in this area, isn’t there? Tell us about the your little friend over there.

Luna Amanita

Yes. Actually we inherited. So, as I mentioned, the local housing association used to have a community garden here, and maybe 10 years ago or so that was active. But, yeah, we when we inherited the site, we also inherited these, very charming wooden carvings. This was a little deer in the tucked in the dead nettle.

Yes. And, yeah, we’re really fortunate because these these trees were, these larger trees here were were planted by the housing association. And it meant that we knew that this land was safe to grow on, which is not a given in the city, and especially not in Glasgow. So, yeah, that’s kind of this area. Maybe you can move over to the closest thing that we have to a building here, which is our canopy space, which, yeah, is a large outdoor space, with a roof but not walls, that allows us to have community groups, using the space and this will be where we gather for our potluck lunches and our volunteer groups.

And, yes, it’s just, like, makes, especially the winter, much easier. Yes. To having a little bit of a dry space to go back to. And, yeah, we’ve got the fire going just now, and kind of storing quite a lot of stuff in here as well. Yes.

Fay Young

It has a really good lived and worked feeling to it.

Luna Amanita

Thank you. I think that’s a compliment.

Fay Young

It is. It is. And behind you, there’s the polytunnels.

Luna Amanita

Yeah. So we’ve got 3 polytunnels, 2 smaller ones and a larger one, and they are really integral to kind of our systems here. I’m gonna walk you through the propagation tunnel, which is where we start almost everything we go here, we start off indoors or in the propagation tunnel.

Fay Young

Oh, look at this.

Luna Amanita

It’s just a place with lots of tiny baby plants. Yes. And,

Fay Young

Look at them.

Luna Amanita

If you’re ever feeling stressed, it’s quite a good place to go. Yeah.

Fay Young

Yes. All this new life and looking very healthy as well.

Luna Amanita

Yes. Especially, yeah. Coming up now we have it’s been a slow start to the season, it’s been pretty cold spring, But, yeah, now getting very full here, and lots of things that are almost ready to plant out. So, yeah, like I mentioned, like, the relatively bare section we started in will will will soon be much fuller.

Fay Young

I can see that.

Luna Amanita

So, yeah, it’s it’s very exciting for us. Winters can be quite long.

Fay Young

Yes. And this one seems to have been a lot longer.

Luna Amanita

Extra. A bit extra this year. Yes. As I as I mentioned, we we we, we start almost everything off indoors, and that really allows us to control the conditions, which is really important in these first couple weeks of growing. And it allows us to kinda time things so that when we are ready to harvest one crop, like, we can see what’s ready to go in and

Fay Young

Yeah.

Luna Amanita

And we can, over time, like, get better at the timings of of things. So, yeah, that’s kind of the

Fay Young

So you’ve you’ve got some really terrific mixture in here. Pak choi and celery and, kale.

Luna Amanita

This is cauliflower, Romanesque of cauliflower. And we’ve got some flowers that are coming up. But again, yeah, we’ve put we’re gonna plant that to kind of help the diversity in the garden.

Fay Young

And and more herbs. Mint.

Luna Amanita

More yeah. Catmint here. Yeah. And, like, yeah, propagated a few of our perennial plants, so gooseberries and

Fay Young

Yeah.

Luna Amanita

And blackcurrants and stuff. And I’ll just take you through see one last thing

Fay Young

Okay.

Luna Amanita

Which is the bees. Oh. Maybe we won’t get too close, but we should be okay just just out here.

Fay Young

Goodness me. I didn’t expect to see them so busy.

Luna Amanita

It’s yeah. They’ve actually they don’t seem to be having a bad season at all. We

Fay Young

How interesting.

Luna Amanita

We did what’s called a hive inspection earlier this morning, in in one of our hives, and it’s really it seems very full.

Fay Young

Oh, gosh.

Luna Amanita

And we’ve added on an extra sort of super to give them more space. So, yeah, they they don’t seem to be slowed down at all.

Fay Young

What kind of what kind of honeybees are they? Are they?

Luna Amanita

Generally, like, most honeybees are kind of like a mix. Yeah, we’ve run courses around beekeeping and

Fay Young

How many bees are there, do you think?

Luna Amanita

There’s 2 hives that we’re looking at. Hives. They’re both busy. There’s lots of foragers coming back to the hives and getting trapped at the entrance. It’s just too busy.

The the box on the on the bottom of the hives, this is quite wider than the supers and, taller than the supers even. It’s got a brood box. And I think, you know, you’re talking in the 1,000. I think it’s it’s, 1 or 4. I think it can be 3 to 4000.

And that’s that is gonna top of my head. So Okay. What an amazing, thing to have to to be able to interact with these guys.

Sometimes we interact with them, yeah, more than we’d like to. So let’s let’s move away. But I’m

Fay Young

So have you done the beekeeping course as well, Luna?

Luna Amanita

Yeah. So, couple years ago, we got funding to run beekeeping sessions, and we had a really knowledgeable beekeeper who, yeah, very generously, like, taught the sessions. And then I was kind of co running those.

Fay Young

Right.

Luna Amanita

And then last year, I became the beekeeper with that training. So

Fay Young

Gosh, I didn’t realize we were talking to the beekeeper.

Luna Amanita

Now now me and Jack are are sharing the responsibility. But, yeah, it’s, it is like a steep learning curve, I I would say. Because, yeah, there’s there is actually quite a lot to it. And from spring until until maybe November or so, like, they, you know, they’re a bit like a pet. You need to, need to be, like, checking in on them, do a hive inspection every week or so.

So, yeah, they’re fairly demanding. But, yeah, maybe let’s sit around the fire.

Fay Young

Lovely. So thank you very much. That that’s a a lovely introduction. Can you tell us a bit more about how you became involved?

Luna Amanita

Yeah. So I started off here as a volunteer in 2021, and it was kind of like a interesting junction point for the for the project. Because Max, the founder, had until that year been running it, more as a market garden than a community garden. But then he started bringing in volunteers that year and I was one of them. And, yeah, I think, like, it became obvious to him at that point that, like, yeah, the community part of it, that was, like, that was the real offering or that was what could be the best way to utilise the space.

And and, like, when I joined, it was really such a lovely crowd of us. It was during lockdown or just coming out of lockdowns, and, yeah, a lot of people had come and get involved during that period. And we would, yeah, just do volunteer sessions twice a week and, share a potluck style lunch. And, you know, we’re nowhere we were there to get the gardening the jobs of the garden done but oftentimes those lunches would they would go on a bit, let’s say. And that was 2021.

The following year, Max brought me on to help out with the admin for the business, and I was still volunteering as a for the gardening group. And then last year, he and his partner had a baby. So very quickly, it became my, this became my baby. Oh,

Fay Young

so that was a really big step up in responsibility.

Luna Amanita

Yeah. And I’m not a I’m I’m not a gardener by trade. Alright. I haven’t been I’ve never done any horticultural training.

Fay Young

What did you do before? What what was your line of work?

Luna Amanita

So I’ve worked in care before that and until he offered the the at first, like, the admin side of stuff, and then and then more responsibility. It hadn’t really occurred to me as a career but I’m very grateful that it did.

Fay Young

So working with working in a garden, a community garden, you are also working with people. Mhmm.

Luna Amanita

It’s it’s not  just about growing plants, you’re establishing relationships and and in an environment where people come together and, so that does take well, as well as organisational skills, you know, just getting to know one another.

Fay Young

How how many people do you have coming here? How volunteers and and members of the community?

Luna Amanita

It could be quite variable. There’s been points where, like, our volunteer sessions would have five or six people coming regularly, and then they’re, like and then that might it might just go down to one or two. And we’re we’re quite we’re at the beginning of this season. We’ve just started up with our gardening volunteer shifts, garden volunteer sessions. So we’ve only got two or three at the moment, but, yeah, we’d anticipate that to build up over time.

But, also, like, yeah, we’re in a bit of, like, a place of flux within the project and, hoping to move more or so in the community direction. So we’ve also just started community sessions on Fridays, which are more aimed at, involving the community and being responsive to what they want to do rather than the needs of the the the growing schedule and and and work. And, again, yeah, those are just started and only a couple people so far. But, hopefully, those will build up and then we’ll be able to reach people who have, yeah, different interests and different needs from the space.

Fay Young

So you have people coming from roundabout? Mhmm. Because you really are right in the heart of a residential area, aren’t you?

Luna Amanita

We’re very residential. Yeah. So we’re in Parkhead, which, is in East Glasgow and one of the poorest parts of Glasgow. And we get volunteers from our local area, but we also, like, we do get volunteers from, say, Dennistoun or Southside and, like, there’s a broad demographic of kind of service users, I guess, and and people who want to engage with the space. And, like, yeah, like I mentioned, like, maybe there’s different interests, there’s different capacity, there’s different ability.

I like and we’re trying to be more responsive to that because, yeah, like, the gardening and food production orientated sessions are great but they are you know, there’s there’s a job to do.

Fay Young

Yeah. Yeah.

Luna Amanita

And Yeah. I guess maybe it’s worth mentioning that, like, we are here growing lots of interesting things, but maybe, like, to a lot of people, especially in in areas like this, it’s it’s quite unusual and, like, maybe a bit foreign as well. So there’s yeah. I think there’s long term work to be done on on firstly convincing the the the very local people, the very local community that this is a space for them, but also, like, to introduce them to or, like, generate interest in in a wide variety of vegetables. Or, you know, like, having at least like more of a conscious relationship to food and where it comes from.

I guess that we do see that as part of our our mission here.

Fay Young

Yes. I was I was going to ask you because you’re you’re you’re talking about being perhaps looking at how it works and and how what it’s for. But you have a core set of aims. Is that right?

Luna Amanita

Yeah. I think our USP at at to an extent, and I think it is fairly unusual, is to marry the intense output, like, a lot of food production on the small amount of space. With a community garden, you know, oftentimes, you know, these things exist, but they exist separately. And what we are about, to an extent, is restoring relationships to food, growing to food, to land, and the access to those things to communities that are not enjoying those benefits. And it’s, yeah.

Like, certainly, when I started volunteering here, the idea around feeding people does add, like, a certain quality, a certain meaning to the to the work. Not that ornamental gardens are are not also, like, really valuable, but, yeah, we think this is also something that people should be able to do. And in an urban context, it could be quite difficult to access. Yeah.

Fay Young

Yeah. Mhmm. The benefits of coming here are are quite varied. Do you notice, do you feel, that those, people changing or or showing new sense of confidence or use gaining new skills? Is is that part of what you do here as well?

Luna Amanita

Yeah. Definitely. And yeah, we’ve had volunteers, who I think have have really had a lot of impact from being involved with the space and, like, building confidence, maybe, like, building employability skills. We’ve had people who like me or, like, I never thought that this food growing was for me and then have gone on to pursue as a career. And, yeah, I think there is, like, quite tangible things like that.

But also I do yeah. I I feel like there’s, kind of harder to pin down, more ethereal benefit to engaging with with the land in such a tangible way. Literally, you’ve got your hands in the soil. And to me, yeah, there’s something about, like, connecting to practices that have been done by people for a very long time. And the secret is out now about, like, the benefit of being outdoors and, yeah, I increasingly understood, like, the, like, the for example, the benefits to your gut bacteria if you’re getting your hands dirty and, regularly.

But, yeah, like, also to me, like, there is a bit of, like, a yeah. I would for me, it’s a a spiritual thing, to be in in communion with the land in that way.

Fay Young

Yes. And I think it’s something that we don’t think about street, cities as streets and concrete

Luna Amanita: and

Fay Young: hard hard landscaping, and yet it is all built on the land, isn’t it? And and Yeah. You don’t have to leave things alone for very long for nature to reassert itself and Okay. Grow back through the cracks. Yeah.

So, but you have you have a it’s half an acre, and it’s fertile, and and it responds to to what you’re doing. That must be very rewarding. Perhaps we could talk a little bit about the actual practical things, the activities in the the calendar. So you’ve been talking about the workshops that you do and and we’ve had a look at the planting calendar, it’s already well on its way. But what’s on the agenda for, activities here in the in the near future?

Luna Amanita

Things are really getting rolling just right now. But, yeah, we’re gonna continue our our volunteer sessions on Thursdays that are, yeah, orientated towards the the needs of the of the product of the crops and, doing lots of seed sowing, planting out, lots of lots of weeding. But then on Fridays, we’re also gonna be doing these community sessions and, yeah, like, to, in a sense, seeing what the community wants it to be about. Could do things like, you know, sowing wildflowers, looking around at the ecology of the space and, you know, trying to identify different bugs. They could just come and hang out, you know, like, if that’s what what people wanna do, then then that’s great.

And, yeah, we’re just starting this week working with local partners to run gardening sessions for people who are pregnant and going through the, maternity process, but might, face barriers to that, mostly because they’re women from refugee backgrounds. And, yeah, another partner organization supports local young people. So we’re gonna do that, like, a combined group. And, again, yeah, like, I guess, it’s taking a holistic approach to the health of of these people, because, really, it’s just about being in the green space, having a social, outlet and way to connect. And, again, like, that does feel like a really it makes a lot of sense for for spaces like this, for spaces like for projects like ours.

Maybe for a lot of people, the benefit is being here and, like, to be in community and yeah. Like like you mentioned, to grow food and community as well. It’s like, these are such restorative practices. So, Mondays, we’re here just a our little team, and then Tuesdays is is the those sessions. And then we’ll be doing the Bee Club.

It’s already fully subscribed. I know we’ve got a waiting list, but, we’re gonna be running once a month sessions, to teach what we know about beekeeping, but, like, but more broadly to expand the kind of pool of people looking after our bees here because, like I mentioned, there’s quite a lot of work. It’s like, you need to be quite seem to be here. And sometimes we wanna take holidays. So our our hope is to get a group that’s relatively self organizing and sharing information, sharing knowledge, and enthusiasm, and, yeah, looking after the bees with us.

And, yeah, again, like, that model of, you know, this being a place of mutual learning, mutual growth, I think, is, you know, we don’t have all the answers maybe, you know, only 20% of the answers. So that makes sense to me and to us.

Fay Young

It is when you have groups working together, it’s amazing what other people know, isn’t it? And sharing and learning for one another is a really great experience. It’s when when we’re sitting here, you know, we’re watching a bee going past you as you as you were talking, and we’re hearing the birds sing. It it’s a it’s a lovely space to be in. We are all terrifically conscious, I think, of places where life isn’t as as enjoyable.

And and also this when you’re growing and working in a garden, you’re really very much aware of how the climate is becoming much more challenging. Mhmm. And is that something you’ve found?

Luna Amanita

It’s an interesting one. Growing food in the west of Scotland is always gonna be challenging and has been, I think, yeah, time immemorial. And historically, the east of Scotland was was where most market gardens would be found. Yeah. Slightly better climate for for food growing and and much better soil and flatter.

So it yeah. It’s it’s difficult to say, honestly. I I’ve been here, as I said, since my since 2021. So, you know, every season has felt quite different in terms of, you know, climatically. But is Glasgow always just like that?

Is West Scotland always like that? It’s hard to say. I think what’s kind of scary for us as as things as the climate continues to become more unpredictable, is actually drought, which is an interesting problem to be worried about in in Scotland and Glasgow. But we here are really very fortunate. We have really sandy soil.

Most of Glasgow is quite clay soil. So the predictably huge amount of rain that we get isn’t an issue, isn’t as much an issue for us because it drains and doesn’t drown all our poor little seedlings. But it does mean we’ve got this handy, so if there was ever a drought and then, I guess, like, this time last year, last May, we had we did have a couple weeks without rain. We were managed to be responsive to that. But, that is a bit of a worry.

Yeah. And these kinds of challenges are only gonna get deeper, and it’s already food production in the UK, in Scotland, particularly in Glasgow, is already very challenging and also very, very necessary if we’re going to address the causes of climate change. Like, we really do need to be producing a lot more of what we’re eating and not importing it from overseas. So yeah, I guess, arguably, like, we should be really investing in figuring out how to grow more, like, at a societal level. We should be investing in in how to grow and produce enough food to to sustain us in Scotland so that we can, you know, have some preparedness for the challenges to come.

Fay Young

And it’s interesting in what you were saying at the beginning about this possibly being a garden during the Second World War.

Luna Amanita

Right.

Fay Young

And when people had to respond and adjust very quickly to that very thing that you’re talking about, being self reliant, self sufficient and, because you couldn’t import food.

Luna Amanita

Right.

Fay Young

So probably they were growing a lot of potatoes here I’m guessing.

Luna Amanita

Quite possibly.

Fay Young

And I think when you speak in those terms, and also maybe adjusting to a chain a warming climate, and, 22 things, you’re able to grow more things, but you might have to be working with the different kind of, pattern of weather. Too much rain at sometimes and not nearly enough at others. But also, it just an awareness of of, how the local and the global are really connected and I don’t know if that’s something you find in the garden in human terms and in in crop terms.

Luna Amanita

Right. Yes. Like like, working here and working the land, like I I I talked about it, like, to me, that is such a birthright. That’s something that I think old people or communities should have access to. And I really believe that if we are going to meet the challenges of the decades to come, we do need to restore and remember our connection to what is you know, these are our lands.

Not in a sense that we own that, I don’t believe in owning land, but in the sense that these are the thing these are the c, this is the relationship that has sustained our communities for a long time. And when I say sustained, I don’t just mean fed us, but also, like, given us a context of our own position in the world and and and in history and in geography. And, yeah, along those, I guess, like, I want to, like, draw the connection between and, like, the histories of of this land and how they are manifesting in different ways in the world we have today. I think a lot of the health issues that people in Scotland, people in Glasgow, people in Parkhead face is because of historical forces that have severed that connection that sustains us, physically, spiritually, emotionally. And, yeah, here in Scotland, it’s it’s not in living memory, you know, the Highland Clearances, enclosure, and so on.

But that is part of a process which has continued and continues of displacing people from their land, from their ingenuity, and, as we speak, is still ongoing in in Gaza and Palestine. And we perceive ourselves in a global community and struggle to restore land to people. And I think that the more I personally am in relation to the land and what it offers and what it provides us, the more sure I become that the only way to a just future is remembering our connection to the land, remembering that that’s sacred, and restoring the lands that have been stolen and are being stolen.

Fay Young

Oh, that’s very nicely put. And that just being in the growing world, I think you feel that much more strongly. Mhmm. The cost of running a space like this, you know, what what does it cost and and how do you pay for it?

Luna Amanita

It’s you don’t get into horticulture to get rich. I think probably it’s never been something that people have done because they want to be wealthy. But particularly now in our food system, growing food on our scale, like, a very small amount of land relative to, you know, like, to other farms is really economically challenging. And we are reliant on grant funding for what we do. And, I guess, you know, like, the pragmatic part of moving in more of a community garden side kind of direction is because, you know, like, this Max tried to make it work as a business that just grew food and sold food and it’s not really possible on our scale.

And I would say, like, we’ve since figured out not desirable or, like, not the best use of the space, but, like, yeah, that’s part of our kind of desire to move in a different direction and and perhaps, like, things like training and working with, higher education providers and and, like, health services is, like, part of our future. So, yeah, we’re largely grant funded just now and rely on the, goodwill of our team to accept the accept insecurity of doing this kind of work when you are, you know, when you are reliant on on grants and, you know, a yearly funding cycle. Yeah. Yes. We do have our vegplot scheme, which does it does help.

And we are a social enterprise. So, you know, we’re we use the money from the Vegbox scheme to help us run the rest of our kind of social program.

Fay Young

So tell us about the Vegbox scheme then. How does that what’s the, the structure of it then?

Luna Amanita

It’s, it’s a small one. Last year it was like between 20 30 households, and all of them are local. Again, maybe not a lot of them from Parkhead itself or the more deprived areas, I should say, of of East Glasgow. But, all of them from within the city, and we ask our customers to come here to collect the veg, which obviously has, like, very you know, has a logistically, it makes a lot of sense for us. But, also, you know, it has serving the purpose of people are directly seeing what what they’re getting and what we’re up to.

And we harvest those veg boxes the Thursday and then, you know, they collect them on the Thursday evening. So as fresh as can be. Really fresh. Which, yeah, I perhaps worth mentioning, like, the nutritional value of produce deteriorates really quickly. So, yeah, again, maybe it comes back to this thing.

It’s like, we deserve all of us deserve, like, freshly grown produce. And if people could do more of what we’re doing, you know, that could be much more available. At the moment, we run a kind of sliding scale model, for our boxes. So, for example, like, the medium sized box was, like, £10, £12, or £14 last year. And, like, the £10 is, like, is not making us any money.

So, you know, we can do what we can to try and to try and promote access and availability in our very small scheme. But, yeah, like, we have this multifaceted challenges in the food system where it’s, like, we’re importing huge amounts of food, but they are then not nutritious, and more luckily, green food is not affordable. And, like, the incentives within the food system are kind of I would describe them as the opposite way I would set them up, more towards a much larger scale production, which necessitates production methods that are not environmentally

Fay Young

It’s got built in waste, hasn’t it? Right.

Luna Amanita

And, like, yeah, the built in need to store things for a long time when they, you know, they’re getting shipped to to market, supermarkets. Yeah. It’s I I don’t think it’s a good system.

Fay Young

Not at all. No. Not at all. Enabling people to, to to get really fresh produce. Also perhaps encouraging, experimenting with different kinds of foods that they haven’t seen in the supermarket.

Luna Amanita

Yeah. Forced experiments.

Luna Amanita

People never know what to do with kohlrabi. That’s always the

Fay Young

Oh, kohlrabi.

Luna Amanita

People always in a pickle about that. Yes. Don’t don’t put it in a pickle. But,

Fay Young

It’s, it’s an extraordinary looking vegetable, but it actually tastes really good. It’s really crunchy.

Luna Amanita

I like it and it grows very well here.

Fay Young

Does it? It’s sort of like a turnip, I suppose, in behaviour, isn’t it? Yeah. Exactly.

Luna Amanita

But I think there is yeah. There’s also this issue of, like, the things that grow well here are often not very valued here. So kohlrabi is one. There’s a type of like salad green called Purse Lane or miner’s lettuce which could grow like way into the winter in Scotland and it’s delicious. Or, as the sun goes, it’s delicious.

But nobody eats it. So, yeah, I guess there’s also there’s cultural changes within built into those economic challenges within our food system. What was the question?

Fay Young

I was just wondering what what is so you’ve got kohlrabi, you’ve got what else have you got in the box?

Luna Amanita

It’s we try to be quite varied with it.

Fay Young

Yeah.

Luna Amanita

And, yeah, like like you mentioned, like, there are there’s a few times where people would be like, what is this?

Fay Young

Do you put recipe cards in?

Luna Amanita

What we’ve done in the past is have, like, a shared Google Drive.

Fay Young

Okay.

Luna Amanita

Of so people just share their recipes and and the volunteers. The customers can share them too. But yes. We’ll try to kind of have a lot of variety and, like, hit different, I guess, like macronutrients is a way of putting it. Like, we’ll try and put, like, beans or peas, something rich in protein, or try to put something quite starchy.

So we don’t do a lot of potatoes, but, maybe other root veg. Lots of turnips. Leafy greens grow really well here, salads, kale, a lot of kale. You’re going to learn to love kale if you don’t eat, a sustainable diet in Scotland. And we use the tunnels, to grow things that yeah.

And more easily appreciate let’s say. Like tomatoes, cucumbers, aubergines. And I am always campaigning personally to do more winter squash because it’s kind of my favorite. This doesn’t make a huge amount of sense to do for us because it’s in the ground for a long time and you only get a crop right at the end and Yeah. Like, it tends to make more sense for us to do things that are in the ground for a short time and give you, like, a a good yield.

But, yeah, also, like, we eat everything that we grow here as well, so we wanna be growing stuff that we like to eat.

Fay Young

Absolutely. Yeah. So maybe you could have the symbolic squash. You just grow a few of them, but you you really celebrate. But I was wondering about having cookery demonstrations here.

I used to belong, when I, in in Edinburgh I used to belong to a group that that did that. And, people from all over the world, you know, showed, say you had the Indian, African, Spanish, Scottish way of cooking the potato or the apple

Luna Amanita

We’ve got, a chef joining us for our Tuesday sessions with it’s kind of the the closed group. And they’re gonna be cooking on our fire right here using produce from the garden. Wonderful. So, yeah, tasty lunches for me. But, yeah.

Yeah. You’re right. And the great thing about working in a place like this and, like, these kinds of outdoors places is there’s so like, there’s no limit to the amount of things that you you can get into. And, like you mentioned, like, the mutual kind of mutual learning is, like, everyone’s gonna bring a different kind of interest to any one thing and, like, maybe different recipes from from different family members that go back back and back. So like

Fay Young

Yeah. Yes. Food is such an emotional thing actually and there’s nothing like making, growing, making and eating a meal together is is really perfect Yeah. Kind of cycle, isn’t it? Right.

Luna Amanita

It feels very, yeah, nurturing.

Fay Young

Yes. Yes. Absolutely. So I I would just, one of the one of the questions we ask, guests is, do you find in the work that you do this this reason to be cheerful that despite all the awfulness that’s going on around us, that there is some hope. I mean, do you feel that from from the work that you do?

Are there signs of hope?

Luna Amanita

I think signs of hope are there. I really, want to be careful not to understate, like, the seriousness of the situation. And also, like, that when humans have faced a credible catastrophe before, largely, it wasn’t because of things we could’ve or things that could’ve been preventable. And, yeah, to me, would would have been preventable or more more prevented than they have been if there wasn’t the massive disenfranchisement of communities around the world. And as I’ve talked about, like, I believe removal from the land and the knowledges that come from the land is a massive part of that.

The reasons for hope, I think, are are yeah. Maybe, like, the thing that makes me hopeful is that I do really yeah. Like, I really believe, like, the getting back to communities organised around shared use of land, common goals, nurturing of one another, and, yeah, like, have, like, the resources within them to be sovereign, like, sovereign communities, I think that is the way through the crises that are happening, the crises to come. But what makes me hopeful is that if that happens, it would also begin to unravel a lot of the threads of domination, imperialism, alienation, I sound like an academic, and poor health, and I mean that I mean, poor health in the broadest sense that afflict us and have afflicted our societies societies even before the climate breakdown started to to become un ignorable. Does that make sense?

Fay Young

Yes, it does. It does. It’s The the hope and the despair are often very close together, aren’t they? But but, everything has to start somewhere, and what you’re doing here is is a very encouraging and

Luna Amanita

Thank you.

Fay Young

Uplifting start. And and it’s certainly sitting here. A lot of things feel possible. So amazingly, we’ve we’ve reached the end of our, conversation, except for one question that with which everyone gets asked, and can be difficult or not, depending on your way of looking at buildings. And and, it’s, to ask you what is your favorite building in Glasgow, and what its walls would say if they could speak.

Luna Amanita

I find it much easier to appreciate the

Fay Young

Well, it could be a space. It I don’t think it has to be a building. Great.

Luna Amanita

Okay. That’s where I’m going.

Fay Young

Great. Good.

Luna Amanita

Yeah. The beauty of natural design are outdoor spaces, which, you know, can be human spaces also, is something that I find much easier to appreciate. Last week, I went to the Southern Necropolis here in Glasgow, which is yeah. It’s in the Gorbals Bulls. It’s off this really big main road, and perhaps, like, not as well known about as the the the central Necropolis, but, it’s beautiful.

There’s old birch trees and lots of there’s a bit of a sense of wellness to it, and there’s lots of plants that really like living in in grave yards and cemeteries. And Yes.

Fay Young

It’s good, rich, environment. Right.

Luna Amanita

And it’s in terms of buildings, there’s a kind of I wanna call it a portcullis, it’s like a gatehouse, which, yeah, maybe when the necropolis was being built, like, security in these places was a big concern. But, obviously, it’s long abandoned now and the pigeons have taken up nest there. So I think that the walls who are speaking there would be goo goo. And, literally, they are. So I think that’s

Fay Young

That’s it. That’s lovely. It’s very different. Thank you so much Luna. Thank you.

It’s been really, a a very nice time to spend with you here and, we’ve covered a lot of ground and literally Yes.

Luna Amanita Thank you for metaphorically. Bearing with me.

Fay Young

Not at all. No. It’s it’s been a great pleasure. Thank you very much indeed.

Katharine Neil

Glasgow City Heritage Trust is an independent charity and grant funder that promotes the understanding, appreciation, and conservation of Glasgow’s historic built environment. Do Do you want to know more? Have a look at our website atglasgowheritage.org.uk and follow us on social media at Glasgow Heritage. This podcast was produced by Inner Ear for Glasgow City Heritage Trust and is sponsored by Tunnock’s.

Bash Khan

You need to invest in people. If you design it from the community, if anyone else who comes in parachutes in, that never ever works.

Niall Murphy

No. It never works. It’s gotta be grassroots.

Bash Khan

It’s always got to be connected to grassroots. But also to recognize that there are skills within that community. Uh-huh. Because I think sometimes what happens is people expect people to do that for for free as well. And I also think that’s slightly unfair.

Niall Murphy

Yeah. It is.

Bash Khan

If the planners are getting paid, if the designers are getting paid, if the architects are getting paid, if the builders are getting paid, then someone who is qualified should be, you know and I said that I put this word of value again down. Value those people’s time and expertise, but and also value that something good might come out of it.

Niall Murphy

Hello, everyone, and welcome to If Glasgow’s Walls Good Talk. I’m Niall Murphy.

Fay Young

And I’m Fay Young.

Niall Murphy

In today’s episode, we’re meeting Basharat Khan, Bash for short, a Glasgow based filmmaker and visual artist with a real passion for bringing public spaces to life. He is telling the stories of real people in new ways and often unexpected places.

Fay Young

Yes. And his larger than life images are quite literally eye opening. During the pandemic, Bash’s live film portraits celebrated the more usually invisible people who kept, they still keep, our vital services going. He projected them telling their stories onto familiar buildings at a scale normally reserved for celebrities. The impact was astonishing.

Niall Murphy

Yes. That really was eye opening. We’ve all grown used to seeing faces no bigger than our thumbs on mobile screens. And there they were, ordinary people being celebrated for the extraordinary work like hero;s. Work like this challenges the way we see the world. Bash let’s start with you telling us what you’re working on right now.

Bash Khan

Thank you very much, for that introduction. You just touched upon on the Edge project, which was well, I really exploration of looking at, you know, the value of people and the value of who actually makes our society run. And, of course, this is very much on the, kind of, the backdrop to the conversation coming from our political classes, you know, who are questioning the value of people in our communities, the value of arts, the value of teachers, the value of nurses. So, really, I think it was a real response to that narrative that was going around about the working class, people from migrant communities. And as I said, these are the people who actually make our societies run.

Absolutely. But, of course, the second thing that I was also looking at was how the places where the key workers were staying in were literally on the edge of Glasgow’s boundary. Mhmm. Now my experience goes back 20 odd years, and I first started working in the Red Road Flats, up in Springburn.

Niall Murphy

Yes.

Bash Khan

Working with Street Level Photo Works. We were exploring the the new communities that were coming in, from, you know, all different parts of the world and being housed in these high rise flats. And even at that stage, it struck me about the extreme extreme lack of facilities, everyday facilities that people require to, you know, live, you know, what you consider to be, you know, happy, comfortable lives. So the only shop that that a place all had is one shop, I believe, and one pharmacy.

Niall Murphy

Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It’s it’s that Billy Connolly quote, deserts with windaes.

Bash Khan

Yeah. And I think since that time, that’s really been at the forefront of my kind of thinking about how places have they been designed for communities? Mhmm. You know, what what are the processes that have led to, you know, our built environment? There are so called consultations that happen, but in reality, how many of those suggestions that people ask for, how many of them were actually implemented, into planning, for healthy, vibrant communities.

And, yeah, and going back from Springburn, you know, 20 odd years to even now working in in the Gorbals, which is Mhmm. How it has gone through, regenerations every 15, 20 years, I think.

Niall Murphy

Yeah. The Gorbals me as one of the most interesting parts of the cities precisely because of that.

Bash Khan

One of the participants I was working with last year, a lovely woman called Mary, and, you know, and her joke always was, she goes she goes, all these planners and set designers, they all got bored and said, you know what? Let’s tear down the garbles and start again. And and that’s how the community sees it. That’s how people see it on the ground that it’s been designed not for people in mind. Sure.

Niall Murphy

Okay. No. I can I can completely understand that? And, yeah, I mean, areas like the global sample happened to Springburn are hugely frustrating. And particularly when you look at the city now, you think you just can’t afford to, like, constantly be demolishing, starting again.

It’s such a waste of resources, but it’s also what it does to the community at the same time, that kind of fracturing of the community, the kind of loss of all of the kind of the the the places where them they they associate memories with. Things like that to me, that’s that’s one of the tragedies of Glasgow, that people lose kind of once you obliterate things like that, they people kind of it it’s it’s, you know, I think it’s one of the issues that causes the Glasgow effect. And I’m kind of with Sir Harry Burns on that. I think that’s a that’s a major issue for me.

Bash Khan

Mhmm. Yeah.

Fay Young: Yeah. Could I ask you both what you what you think makes a good public place? What what helps people to feel like they belong and to to have the confidence to make friends, actually, you know, to feel part of a community?

Bash Khan

Yeah. I think I’ve got one suggestion. I was like, benches.

Fay Young

Somewhere to sit.

Bash Khan

Somewhere to sit. Somewhere to take a a moment. Somewhere just to be present in a place rather than just passing through it. You know? And I think if you look at you know, we’ve all been to different places around the world, and we’ve seen some amazing parks and where the seating has been designed in very specific ways where it kind of encourages, you know maybe you may have a chance with a conversation to the person next to you or you might play chess or backgammon out in the park, you know, that, you know, that I’ve seen in other places.

You have to create those spaces and those, yeah, those benches and seats. And if you think about it, whenever you walk in certain community areas, how often do you find a place to sit?

Fay Young

Yeah. Yes. In fact, sometimes they’ve taken the seats away. You know, I’d I lived in Edinburgh for a long time and they actually removed a bench because they felt it was encouraging, the wrong kind of people to sit there.

Niall Murphy

That’s so so depressing. I remember at the Glasgow and, obviously, this has been subject of huge debate, the concert hall steps. Ah, yeah. This is when this was first mooted getting rid of the steps back in 2006. And there’s a police representative, and this was, you know, pre Scottish police, or Police Scotland.

And the police representative I always got quite well with suddenly said, no. You don’t want that space. People loiter there, and they eat sandwiches there. And you’re like, my goodness. A crime.

And everybody else was, no. No. No. That’s a good thing. Like, that means you’re encouraging socialisation.

And there was a the police’s attitude was, no. It’s all now to us. You don’t want them. And it was like, but the but they used used for graduation ceremonies and take people taking photographs. What’s wrong with It was it was completely different ethos.

And, yeah, you have you have to create those spaces around the city where you can get spontaneity and, you know, people interacting with each other. That’s what makes a city fun and makes you wanna live in it.

Bash Khan

You know, on on that note, just to connect connect it up, on one of my projects, I actually took a red bench for a walk around the east end of Glasgow.

Fay Young

Oh, wow.

Bash Khan

So that’s, you know and as as part of the two processes, one is, of course, is the bench itself. The second process is the camera. And the camera then, I encourage people to sit sit on the bench and talk about this idea, about the lack of public spaces and setting. So then those those two kind of those two things at play create the image at the end. And, you know, and that created a whole range.

And one, you know, over a few weekends, that created a whole range of conversations. Allowed me to meet all the different business owners. I met to meet some people who live in that in that area. And that only happens at the city within maybe 4 or 5 hours.

Niall Murphy

Yes.

Bash Khan

And how much connectivity you can actually get within that short space time is remarkable. But if you create the the space for it, the sculpture or the environment for that Yeah. And I think this is something that we still haven’t really done in in communities, because you have to instigate these things. You have to create interventions, I think, which, you know, used to happen through fiestas, for example. Yeah?

People would decide, okay. I can get I can get involved now in this. Okay? Yeah. Of course, Christmas does at at times.

You know, people, okay. I can get involved in this now. I can sing in a choir in a public space.

Fay Young

Yeah. And what you’re describing doesn’t take a huge amount of money, does it? I mean, you can you can create a welcoming environment by putting a bench down as you’re describing, but also just those gentle interventions that require some human skills, I guess, and an open mindedness.

Bash Khan

Yeah.

Fay Young

Bash, you do seem to have a natural talent for bringing people together, and and perhaps as you’ve described and and Niall has been saying an interest in people who live on the edge. Is that right? And how did you become a filmmaker? What brought you into this?

Bash Khan

The idea of representation has always been very interesting for me. As someone coming from, a diverse background, growing up in Scotland, it’s something you become very aware of growing up as a, you know, as a young child, even in your in your professional life, about the lack of representation of people of color, people from diverse backgrounds. But also for me, that also goes into the said even into the working class which, you know, really covers a whole range of people. That really does cover everyone. So that thing’s always been very important for me.

The I did reps how to represent, people that may not be given the that I feel that they should have in society. And and, yeah, and fair, you were alluding to how that kinda came to be, about seeing the value in others. My kind of journey in this started in a very different way. I was I was on the road to become a mechanical engineer, an extremely bored mechanical engineer, if if I if I had gone gone through with it. So I’ve kind of got a course in my kind of, education and where I was gonna go next.

And and interesting enough, I studied two things at that time. I did a part time course in psychology for six months, and then I did a part time course in photography. And I was gonna I was gonna choose between the two. And then the summer before I was gonna start the course, I had the chance to go to to France for the World Cup. France 98.

Is that right?

Niall Murphy

Yes.

Bash Khan

Oh my god. That’s so Yep. Yep.

Fay Young

Okay. Oh, no.

Bash Khan

So anyway, going to France, I actually borrowed my one of my, you know, best friends from school. I borrowed his camera to say, like, I wanna go and try taking some photos and photographs. It was the first time I’d kinda gone with that kind of process in the mind that I want to, yeah, just document this time, this moment. What that was, I wasn’t aware of what what was what was going to be. And then the excitement of having the camera and having, you know, being in Paris on, I believe, the first day or the second day, we were going out to the, the main square to watch the match.

And so we took the metro and lo and behold, by the time we turned up to the square, the camera was gone. No. I had left it on the train, in some in some process. I don’t know if I left it or it was taken for me. I’m not sure.

Niall Murphy

Easy done. Yeah, especially in Paris.

Bash Khan

So the the dreams of documenting all this kind of, can evap evaporated. But then a week later, we were camping in Leon, for sorry. We were in a week later for the next round, of the following the Tartan army round. And on the night after the game, on the way back to the campsite, I found another camera lying around.

Niall Murphy

How how how handy?

Bash Khan

You know. This was a well, my friend’s was quite a nice expensive kind of proper thing with the lens and everything. This is a plastic thing, and it was a kind of a point and shoot, but no one no one claimed it. So then I had this camera for the last seven days of of the journey. And then I suppose the pivotal moment became one night I end up actually kind of, somehow being completely losing my friends one night.

It’s just the crowds were just so huge. So I ended up this one one evening in Paris, just myself and the camera walking around. And because of the camera, I managed to connect. And this is important as well. If I was with my friends, this would not happen.

Being on your own, I had to connect with someone again and say, how do I make that kind of connection? And for me, the camera became this really kind of universal language. So I didn’t have to speak that person’s language, but putting the camera and making a suggestion with your head saying, like, saying, can I take a picture? Everyone everyone understood that language. Yes.

And it was through that process. You know, I still remember that night very clearly. I know I met Mhmm. People from from Chile, from Morocco, from Argentina, from Senegal, Iran. You know, it was just a huge night.

Niall Murphy

God, that’d be such a such an amazing experience.

Bash Khan

And then I realized at that moment that actually the camera was a tool to connect. The act of making an image or even the act of asking someone for the image was maybe an act of saying, I recognize you. I feel that you are worth representing.

So I think those things at that point became quite a powerful powerful thing for me. And when I came back from Paris, I started doing photography, and photography then became that was my first love. Mhmm.

Niall Murphy

So what was it like coming back home then?

Bash Khan

I think that that was a a new journey then, taking a start on something new. You know, being involved in the in the arts was something I’d never ever considered. It was wasn’t something that, you know, culturally growing up that you think might be a feasible career option. You do wonder, but that even that case as well of representation and and even now, we are still we are still getting there, but we haven’t, you know, rectified those issues. So going back 20 odd years, if you can imagine the landscape was even different back then where the lack of representation was very, very low.

So it’s about finding that space for yourself and finding that, yeah, space and avenue where your work connects, where your work can fit in.

Fay Young

And you’ve branched out considerably with your work, working not just in Scotland. You’ve worked across the world, haven’t you, as far, from Spain to to Pakistan. Are you seeing I mean, the the stories you tell, the stories you record, and they’re available for people to see on your website, very interesting website. Are there common themes that you you find, you know, when when people are telling their stories about maybe often disrupted lives?

Bash Khan

If you touch upon the the documentary that I made in Pakistan, and I said it’s always a bit challenging. It’s all about challenging perceptions. I think this is always a key, the key theme that runs through a lot of my work. Now that was made just about, oh, maybe about over 10 years ago. Now when I and this is how the the media and even now, we have got huge question marks, and people are now beginning to realize, you know, the impact that the media has on swaying and forming and sculpting public opinion is powerful.

It’s hugely powerful. So myself as, you know, first generation, Scotch Pakistani, you know, I have connections to Pakistan. I’ve got cousins there. I’ve been over, you know, many times. I know the place well.

And even when when I was going to go across and said to him, I’m gonna go across. I’m gonna be there for two months and I want to work on something. I want to explore. And I said the camera gives you that excuse to do this. So this is why I became very conscious that, you know, the camera is powerful and I need to to use it to tell stories.

So I was kind of thinking what what should I focus on? What are the themes that I should focus on if I’m going to go to Pakistan to make a documentary? Now the first things that came to my head when I was making some notes and ideas was terrorism, poverty, environmental issues, human rights. Everything I initially thought of was ideas that had been kind of almost been shaped in my head by what I’ve what I’ve been exposed to by the media over the last ten years prior to that.

Niall Murphy

Yeah. There’s not not a lot of joy there.

Bash Khan

No. And if that’s someone like myself who knows the place, who comes from Pakistani heritage, those are some of my thoughts about that place. How is someone else going to react to that place if they’ve got no exposure to it whatsoever? So at that point, I became you know, I had to kinda slap myself in the head and said, right, why are you having these thoughts first? Because there’s much more to a place than what these things, you know, are laid out by by the the mainstream media.

So I kinda went with a very different approach to say, well, I the idea I said, how do I represent people honestly? Do I go with my take on it of what should talk about? So should I go and force them to talk about terrorism and poverty or whatever? Or would the act of representation actually be to ask them what’s important to them? Yeah.

I see. So in that case, they set the agenda of what they wanna talk about.

Niall Murphy

Yeah. Yeah. So voices that are important in this.

Bash Khan

Yeah. So if if they wanna talk about something that’s heavy and intense, then fair enough. That’s absolutely fine. But if something else that they wanna talk about, then let’s try to kind of follow, follow that process. And so again, I used it over a process called of serendipity where I allowed kind of one main character who was a taxi driver who’d written his book about his experiences of working in a taxi, and he has some lovely kind of thoughts and ideas which also reflected some of my approach about finding the other side of the story.

Mhmm. So one person led me on to another person about who I should speak to next, and they said, well, we should go and speak to this person. This is gonna be quite interesting. So I kinda allowed that process to kind of connect the dots, and, yeah, just turn into a very kind of, I call it, vignettes of different different lives, and different short stories at play.

Fay Young

It sounds fascinating. You can see it being a great documentary. And you could do the same in Glasgow, of course.

Niall Murphy

Certainly, you could.

Bash Khan

This is the thing where, you know, I don’t even a lot of my, you know, part of my process involves media education as well. And Mhmm. And one of the key things that that I look at, especially with lots of young people, to say we can’t just be consumers of stories. Okay? And I’ve become quite conscious now so that after COVID, how much stuff we consumed and how much more films can you consume.

But also getting young people to think about not just being consumers, but creators of stories as well because you’ve got the tool in your hand. It’s such a powerful tool at the moment. And of course, young people are doing that through TikTok and Instagram, finding all these different, models. And I think we are telling more stories than ever before. There’s no doubt about that.

Niall Murphy

True. But then there’s some of the formats of things I’ve I’ve ended up being quite divisive, which I think is really weird. And, you know, I thought I thought things like Twitter would be great for, like, finding out about aspects of the world. And, yeah, some of it ends up in the sewer all the time, and you’re like, it’s quite depressing because it doesn’t have to be like that. You have a choice.

Yeah. You know? You don’t have to be that way.

Bash Khan

In a couple of my films and actually, I also in terms of some of my style of because of my own personal work, has been quite slow, you know. I working in in in the media sector, everyone’s like, can you make it quick? Can we make it short? Can we make it one minute? Can we make it small, wee and twee and quick?

And I was like, of course, we can do that. But I said, if a person’s interested, they’ll watch that thing. Yeah. I know I know you are, you know, jostling for people’s time and attention, But I think there has to be space for something that’s slow and considered at times.

Niall Murphy

Absolutely. I mean, it’s like it’s like with reading, you know, and people’s attention spans has gotten much shorter because of what the media has done and the mechanisms that we’re using to convey things. Whereas the pleasure of being able to read something, that’s that seems to have been lost to a degree to to to a degree now. Mhmm. Yep.

Fay Young

And it brings us back to what Niall was describing at the beginning of of how you turned people into well, well, actually, and, instead of being tiny figures on a on a TikTok screen or whatever, you see these magnificent large scale images that you were projecting. That’s a really interesting turnaround. And I suppose going back to what you were saying about slowing things down, You have to take more time to look at a bigger image and

Bash Khan

Yeah.

Fay Young

In in around you in this space. How do do you want to tell us a bit more about how you created that and set it up and how it was received as well?

Bash Khan

Do you remember at the start when I said I was gonna choose between two2 things, and it was going to be either psychology or photography? What was really interesting was over, you know, over, you know, over my my practice, so far. Of course, a lot of psychology has come out from the, you know, the the visual, medium. There’s a lot of psychology involved in how how we see ourselves, how we read stories, how we feel about things, And one of my earliest projections so as part of my process, I started looking at the using video projections as the outside gallery. Okay.

Looking at ways of using the public realm to tell stories that took place in those environments. So if the story is about the high rise flats and Gorbals in Norfolk Court, then that story should be told outside Norfolk Court rather than Yeah. Another location in the centre of town or somewhere else.

Niall Murphy

Yes.

Bash Khan

So connecting, you know, the story to place is really important. So some of these early projections that I kind of did in these environments involves two things. One is video portraits. So the way I take the images is they are taken in the style of a traditional photographic portrait, but they’re done in video. Now when I ask people to do this, I said, listen.

All I’m gonna do is I’m gonna record you for about a minute, minute 30. Sometimes it’ll be 2 minutes max. And all I need you to do is just to just to be present. That’s all. Just to be present.

And what that process allows is everyone starts off being maybe a little bit tense or putting on their photographic face. But after 15 or 20 seconds, that breaks. And what I can feel is a real humanity comes out. And I described it as living, breathing portrait. So you see the person breathing, smiling, blinking.

And eventually, I said they they reveal something about themselves. And for me, it’s humanity. It’s beauty in that element. And when I asked someone at this point, I said, how does that feel to be part of that process, you know, to be photographed in that way? And I said, you know what?

Actually, it was the first time where I didn’t have to think about anything. Mhmm. I was just I was just being present. I was just here for 2 minutes in this experience. So even that act, when people are getting photographed, there’s something there that comes through.

But, again, slowing things down, it’s not quite a photograph that happens in 5 seconds, especially we we are here. But also the psychology as when I’m looking at your eye Mhmm. When I look at your eye for a few seconds or for 5 seconds or 20 seconds or 30 seconds, the longer I look at that connection, because as I said your eyes are alive Mhmm. You build those connections. You build that empathy with Yeah.

Niall Murphy: Yeah.

Bash Khan

So that is the experience that the the audience gets, or I hope the audience gets by looking at this work. The second thing was a mother came came round, and she said, oh, my daughter got involved in this project. I heard her photographs are gonna get projected onto this, big screen. Can you can you tell me hurry up and tell me when it’s gonna happen? I have to go soon, you know.

Can you come on? I have to go soon. And I think this would be about it’d be half 5 at night. And I said, look, we’re gonna be ready in, yeah, 15, 20 minutes, and we’ll be right, you know. We will get started.

And of course, when I’m presenting this kind of work, I do look at the audience. I’m always interested to see how an audience is engaging with the work, you know, if it’s making the connections, if they’re, you know and I looked around, and this time it was about 6:45, and an hour later, the woman was still there looking at her daughter on on on the screen. And and this is where and I said, you realise these things by doing these things, by testing these things. And at that moment, I thought, wow. I said she’s never seen her daughter at that scale before, you know, at that size before.

She’s larger than life. And, of course, when you’re that large, you’re seeing someone. I think you’re important enough to be that scale. Mhmm. So I think at that moment, I’ve realised that there’s a real interest in psychology within this play as well.

And I think in Scotland, we need that anyway. I think we need to be a bit more confident about ourselves as a nation. So I think all these things are kind of designed to, you know, yeah, see if we can make those small changes. Mhmm.

Fay Young

Yeah. That’s that’s really that’s very touching, actually. And the relationship that that, comes about. Yeah.

Bash Khan

And of course, yeah, you know, so this is then being replicated with On the Edge. The 4 areas we worked on for On the Edge project, was, Dumbarton, Milton, Easterhouse , and Castlemilk . And again, literally, I said four areas right on Glasgow’s, boundary. And again and I think this is where the the idea of looking at the public realm came into play after COVID. So following on from conversation about lack of benches but also the lack of gathering spaces in our communities.

I was conscious of it before COVID, but I think after COVID, it became a huge, huge thing to say, well, where can we gather outdoors safely? Yeah. It’s okay. So you can’t be okay. But, you know, surely there could have been ways that we could have rectified that and encouraged people to be outdoors and still not feel so alone, so isolated.

So on the Edge Project, worked kind of with local communities, worked with local, community organisations to identify locations which in themselves were meant to be a conversation about, well, can this place be used for something else? Can this place be utilised for the community’s usage? So all the four sites that we we saw were kind of semi derelict kind of places, places that have been kinda shut down, but also fantastic open green spaces, which, you know, are not used for anything at all. So it’s also about reactivating and thinking about those places and how you know, I I think we’ve got huge issue around accessing our public spaces, you know. How much you know, without having to go through lots of kind of red tape and jumping through lots of hoops.

But how can we get small allotments out there? How can we get benches and seating areas that are covered? You know, we have to work with the weather, but Mhmm. There’s ways to do that. So, yeah, it’s just really looking at when we’re designing these places, when we’re looking at building new houses in the Gorbals and we had a chance, I feel, in the Gorbals as an example, to look at examples from around the world where you create hubs right in the heart of all these houses.

Because even now with all the beautiful houses being made, I’m looking at where are the coffee shops? Where are the the the kind of the small kind of drop in commute community centers? Where are the decent parks?

Niall Murphy

Yeah.

Bash Khan

They’re right there. Yep. So, yeah, I think there’s still issues around that that need to be looked at. Mhmm.

Niall Murphy

That’s it has has been a failing. I mean, you’ve got Crown Street as as the retail hub for, the Gorbals. But the problem is when you begin to look at places like Goebbels Plus, it just doesn’t work. It’s you know, there there is no proper active frontage onto it. You know, the north side is is the back of the the the the supermarket.

And then on the south side, you’ve got the health centre and then the new Gorbal Housing Association offices. But neither of them are genuinely active because they can’t be active because those are you know, you have to have private conversations and things in those particular buildings, and they’re they’re they’re, you know, they’re business conversations. They’re not designed to connect into the public realm. You know, what it needs is a cafe. What it needs is proper cover.

What it needs is interesting shops. And it needs, as you’ve said, kind of benches or seating that people can spill out onto and actually have a conversation about.

Bash Khan

Nialll, have you seen have you been have you been inside the the health center?

Niall Murphy

Not the health centre, but I have been in New Gorbal Housing Association’s offices, which are lovely offices. They’re just they’re not, you know, they don’t engage with that space. So what’s the what’s the health center like inside?

Bash Khan:

Well, if you get a chance to go inside, I also created some of these about over 200 portraits of, the local community.

Niall Murphy

Right.

Bash Khan

So you’ll find you’ll actually find those, video portraits inside the health centre. Mhmm. And that, again, that was done as a project to allow people from the area themselves Mhmm. Mhmm. To see themselves reflected in the places that in their communities.

Niall Murphy

Yes. Yeah. Yeah. The NHS, they have a really good program of doing things like that, which is really exciting and innovative. So I’ve been involved in some of those before in East Pollock Shields.

Bash Khan

Yeah. And, of course, when we were working in the Gorbal’s, we invited people following the Gorbal’s to say, like, well, me and Garbal’s, Plaza, The Gorbal’s Piazza. And then they’re like, where’s that?

Niall Murphy

Yeah. Good luck.

Fay Young

That’s a way.

Niall Murphy

It’s interesting, isn’t it? It’s it’s more of a kind of pedestrian corridor with a bit of car parking thrown in. It’s not a genuine public space. It just doesn’t work. And it’s it’s funny because there’s a lot lot of talent involved in it, and they just didn’t get what public space was.

Fay Young

Yeah. Well, I was just wondering, who makes the decisions about, you know, planning the the public space? Is is it a planning issue? Is it the consultations that you referred to Bas? I’ve been involved in consultations and you know, what happens to them?

What happens to the the people’s thoughts that are gathered? I I wonder where they end up. But, yeah, Niall, do you is is it a planning issue?

Niall Murphy

I I suspect so. I think probably because it was too detached from people. I mean, I don’t I don’t actually know the background to how the space came about, but it does feel awfully disconnected. I’ve been involved in I helped set up a charrette in East Pollock Shields. This is back in 2016.

And the whole the whole thrust of that was it had to be people from the neighbourhood who were leading on it, and it had to be a grassroots initiative. And even as the person who helped set up, it was myself and the chair of the local community council. We stepped out of it because we wanted, you know, we’d had our say. We’d set the thing up. But we wanted local people to come forward and to actually lead in it and get their say because otherwise, I’d be sitting going, no.

You got that wrong and you got this wrong. And and that wasn’t the right thing to do. I had I had to it’s like, you know, letting your child loose into the the world. You have to let them learn to make their own mistakes and kind of they have to have genuine ownership and authorship of something.

Fay Young

Uh-huh.

Niall Murphy

So I think that’s kinda key.

Fay Young

Yeah. And that ownership is something you’re really interested in, isn’t it, Bash?

Bash Khan

Yeah. I think, you know, I I always look at culture in a very interesting way where culture and heritage, of course, are really important for communities, really important for society. But I also wonder, for example, culture and heritage is also evolving as well. And if you allow people those spaces to create so for example, in Govanhill , Govanhill has created some new cultural events over the last, 5, 10 years with the festivals and such like. Yes.

Those things weren’t always there. Those things were created because people were almost given a bit of, authority, given a bit of respect, given a bit of, money probably. It always helps. Right. Yeah.

But you need to invest in people that really, you know if you design it from the community, if anyone else who comes in parachutes in, that never ever works.

Niall Murphy

And no. Never works. It’s gotta be grassroots.

Bash Khan

It’s always got to be connected to grassroots, but also to recognize that there are skills within that community. Uh-huh. Because I think sometimes what happens is people expect people to do that for free as well. Yeah. And I also think that’s slightly unfair.

Niall Murphy

Yeah. It is.

Bash Khan

If if the planners are getting paid, if the designers are getting paid, if the architects are getting paid, if the builders are getting paid, then someone who is qualified should be, you know and I said that puts word of value again down.

Niall Murphy

Yeah. It does.

Bash Khan

Value value those people’s time and expertise, but and also value that something good might come out of it. Yeah. Yeah. And I’ve been involved luckily in a whole and this is one of the beautiful things about being involved in film. You get to get involved in a whole range of different kind of sectors and, you know, exposure to different, things.

I’ve been involved with, architecture and design there for the last 5 years. I worked in the Scotland and Venice project, for on 2 occasions. I’ve worked in various Charettes in the past as well, Niall, you know, being around, gathering people’s thoughts. So I’ve I’ve seen that combination of people’s thoughts being gathered. Yeah.

And to tell you the truth, have I have I really seen a visible visual outcome of those and all that time, I would have to honestly, I’d I’d struggle to and maybe something small was done, small or twee. Gosh. But honestly and and do you know what? Sometimes to build something like, even a really nice, beautiful, I don’t know, garden office cost £20K. Right?

Mhmm. Okay. Now I’m not a mathematician or someone who’s doing budgets, but when people are spending 2, 3,000,000 plus, if not 5,000,000, 10,000,000 on building projects. If someone said told me there’s not enough 20,000, 50,000 to actually build something, then I I would I would question that.

Niall Murphy

Yeah. Yeah. I I find the whole process quite frustrating. I mean, we that was the first, community led Charette in Glasgow that we did in in East Pollockshields But see, getting even though we got funding from, the council and we got funding from the Scottish government.

We could not get the planners to adopt it.

Bash Khan

Oh.

Niall Murphy

And that that it was it was really we were in this weird position that there were a lot of brownfield sites, just to the east of East Pollokshields. And all the developers were talking to us about what we’re trying to do. We’re kind of buying into what we’re trying to do. Couldn’t get the planners to to to buy into it. And I think that was that was in kind of the early days of kind of mainstreaming of charrettes.

And I think they were just frightened that was by the loss of control. And, and we were trying to say, no. This is about empowering communities and

Bash Khan

Yeah.

Niall Murphy

You know, getting communities to buy into this kind of stuff and shape their own vision for their own place. But, yeah, it’s it’s it’s it was it was a diff it was a change of mindset. And being able to step away from control over that, I think, is very difficult for some people.

Bash Khan

Yeah.

Fay Young

Yes. We haven’t got there yet, have we? We could learn a lot from, Paris and the participative budgeting that they do. Yes. We have I know, Edinburgh has the Leith chooses and things like that, but there’s such tiny sums of money and people have to compete with one another.

You know, groups doing really terrific work have to compete with another group doing terrific work and, I think the the Paris scheme encourages collaboration and, so people put in joint bids and they get serious money. But it encourages a really, well informed grassroots shaping of the city.

Niall Murphy

Absolutely. Yep. It’s a it’s a great idea. It’s a really good idea.

Bash Khan

I mean,

Niall Murphy

There was a bit of participatory above budgeting, and I don’t know whether that’s continued or not because I stepped away from the community council. But we did and we did kind of this must have been back in 2017, 2018. And there was supposed to be a £1,000,000 per ward to kind of work with.

Bash Khan

Yeah.

Niall Murphy

And, and it was interesting to see the proposals people came forward for for that. Uh-huh.

Bash Khan

But it

Niall Murphy

was again, there was this process. You all had to bid against each other rather than

Fay Young

be collaborative,

Niall Murphy

which is Yes. A bit frustrating.

Fay Young

Uh-huh. So, Bash was saying about the Gorbal’s cinema, project that you’re working on. That sounds

Niall Murphy

Really exciting.

Fay Young

A good one.

Bash Khan

I suppose I’m trying to kind of now think about, you know, this conversation that we’ve had about, kind of, communities feeling confident, you know, to have a voice or to feel that their voice is going to be listened to. I would say maybe that’s one of the pressing potential thoughts going through many people at the moment, you know, in our kind of current political climate, that, you know, are we being listened to? I suppose this idea of being listened to or the idea of stories has always been important to me as well. And one of the saddest things that I suppose I could have discovered during, you know, the time of working in the Gorbals was 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9. You know, at one point within within maybe about 7 or 8 blocks, there was about 9 or 10 cinemas in the Gorbals.

You know, right in the heart of all of with some fantastic kind of names, you know.

Niall Murphy

It’s amazing.

Bash Khan

Wellington Palace, the Colosseum Theatre, the Empress Empress Picture Hall, the Hippodrome Cyn Hippodrome Cinema, the the Paragon and the Crown Picture House, Bedford Cinema, and Eglinton Electrium.

Niall Murphy

But Bedford, of course, is is that’s go to ABC now, isn’t it? The Bedford?

Fay Young

Yeah. Yes. Yeah.

Bash Khan

And I think that’s the last that’s the last one. And even some of the other cinemas, I was trying to do some research around what these cinemas actually look like. And there are some images, not that many. But do you know what? They were they were beautiful buildings.

Niall Murphy

Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. They were really

Bash Khan

beautiful buildings, the design. And, of course, as also the place for, again, where people could gather in the Gorbals It was key to that.

Niall Murphy

Yeah. Oh, absolutely.

Bash Khan

It was key to the community and the cohesion. It was a great moneymaker. I did well financially for for a for

Niall Murphy

a while. There were warm spaces. Yeah. You know, if that mattered.

Bash Khan

You know, for me, it was really quite sad in that actually the place for stories because this place really inspire, yeah? Films inspire people, inspire young people, inspire communities. A place of storytelling, a place to inspire was taken away from the Gorbals completely.

Niall Murphy

Yeah. Yes.

Bash Khan

A place where narratives could have, you know, could have been built, you know, a place where new ideas could have been developed. They were all taken away.

Niall Murphy

Yeah.

Bash Khan

And what did they replace them with?

Niall Murphy

Nothing.

Bash Khan

Nothing really.

Niall Murphy

Yep. And it’s desperately depressing. Yeah. When you look at Norfolk and Stirlingfauld Court and those huge slabs, there was just there was nothing there other than filing cabinets for people. That’s it.

You know? And it’s quite depressing. It was like the all the spaces in between, nobody thought about. And Mhmm. Just, you know, other other amenities actually to have a proper, you know, multilayered functioning community just weren’t there.

And I find that really odd.

Bash Khan

Yep.

Fay Young

Really is, isn’t it?

Bash Khan

And if you look at what what happened, you know, to the Gorbals over the last 50, 60 kind of years, you know, and the kind of the misrepresentation of the area I got, you know, about what the people in place started to represent. I always kind of feel that actually it wasn’t by choice. This was by design. Mhmm. You can build something and, you know, create something in a place, but if you take something away from a place, you’re also designing another kind of narrative.

And this is, of course, not being a very, very positive narrative. Yeah. And even now, it’s one of my kind of, you know, it’s kind of one of my dreams that a place, you know, like, you know I quite like I don’t know why, but I like the the Empress Picture House. You know, it’s a good name. But, you know, a place like that, if think about the heritage of the Gorbals and this is the place where the first talkie film was screened in in Glasgow and most likely in Scotland as well.

Right. There’s heritage there. Mhmm. But we’ve totally kind of let it go in it, You know? And it’d be amazing in some kind of way.

And this is kind of the conversation that we’ve had about how do we bring those places back, you know, those designs of those beautiful buildings back. They’ve now physically gone. But is there a thought there? Is there a process there of, you know, bringing them back in a different format through the digital mapping and projections again?

Fay Young

Mhmm. So is that what you’re working on?

Bash Khan

That’s one of the ideas now that’s kind of being developed since, since the the residency that we had last year. I think I’m much more interested also about how we can have conversations about creating those places with stories again Yeah. In the Gorbals. Yes. You know, and what that place is.

And, you know, local cinemas and projections, whatever format that takes. But again, as you said, it has to come from the community. It has to come from, grassroots. But sometimes you have to also kind of make a case for it as well.

Fay Young

Uh-huh. Uh-huh.

Bash Khan

Yes. Yeah.

Fay Young

Sow some seeds. Yeah. Scatter your seeds on the ground and see what actually sprouts. Yeah.

Bash Khan

Yeah.

Niall Murphy

Awesome. Yeah.

Bash Khan

There’s a really interesting and a remarkable number of people. And I think there’s some sort of, who can either migrated to Australia, Canada, whatever, but there’s a lot of people that still connect back and look for information from the Gorbals Yeah. From abroad. A lot of stuff that kinda comes up, with through the Gorbals, even the Oscar Marzaroli collection of those beautiful photographs that he he took. It draws a huge number of of people and audience to that thing.

And I kinda feel like these people have moved away from the Gorbals, back in the sixties.

Fay Young

Yeah.

Bash Khan

So there’s an audience there, I feel. The Gorbals has got a huge audience. So we need to kinda tap into it and yeah.

Niall Murphy

Yeah. The so, like, Glasgow’s diaspora and, yeah, definitely from from various neighborhoods within Glasgow. Yeah. Very much. But, it’s very interesting.

And I think, you know, I mean, again, with going back to touch on the Glasgow effect, I think that kind of shattering, that did have an impact on the city, and it’s like it because it kinda tells you, you know, your city’s finished. Yeah. You know, because we just wanna bulldoze it.

Fay Young

Yeah. Bulldoze it.

Bash Khan

But but so if I’m just touch upon it, but that you know, exactly so that Glasgow effect that, you know Yeah. That you mentioned. This is what I’ve I’ve been looking at where I can ask people about stories really shape who you end up becoming or thinking who you are as a community, a society, a country, whatever. And I always give us example example to someone to say, you know, what are your thoughts or ideas about Paris? So it’s a question it’s a question to both of you.

What are what are the first ideas that come up when when I mentioned Paris to you?

Niall Murphy

Just kind of a a a fantastic city, but a city that definitely knows its value. So

Bash Khan

Yeah. Yeah.

Niall Murphy

Yeah. Just a Yeah. But rich. Rich. Yeah. Yeah. Romance, definitely. It’s a total pleasure to walk around.

Bash Khan

We have romanticism. We have architecture. We have culture. We have arts. We have good food.

You know, we have walking in the rain, you know. Even that becomes Yes. More sexier in Paris compared to walking in the rain

Niall Murphy

and Very very true. Haven’t done it but

Fay Young

I love Paris. We’ve got friends and go and stay with them and we get to stay in the sort of grittier bits of of Paris. But there is that, wonderful mix of sort of arrogance and and confidence, you know.

Bash Khan

And that’s my point exactly because even if it is you’re right. Once you go outside the centre of Paris, it’s some of the possibly harshest areas and toughest areas you could stay in. But the narrative of Paris through story, through books, through songs has created this image. So when even when we go to Paris, we become cultural. We become romantic.

Niall Murphy

Is is there not a syndrome, with kind of Japanese tourists who arrive in Paris expecting it to be kind of the most beautiful and lovely city in the world, and then they get shocked when they actually meet genuine Parisians who are rude and kind of Yeah. In your face and they don’t know how to react to this when they go to the shop.

Fay Young

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Then they come to Glasgow and and you get somebody who takes you around the city if your lost. I know.

Niall Murphy

And it’s like, yeah. And just starts talking to you at random.

Fay Young

Yeah. Yeah.

Bash Khan

I think you’ve had I think nearly head there. If you think about it, there’s been a certain narrative that’s been created about Glasgow, certain areas of Glasgow, which for me are not always embedded in the complete reality of the truth.

Niall Murphy

Yeah. Very much.

Bash Khan

So who’s creating those narratives for us?

Niall Murphy

Yeah. Yeah. Completely. Completely. Yes.

Bash Khan

Yeah. I recognise that thing completely. You said, oh, someone actually took me around and showed me what where I had to kinda yeah. I’ve had various friends saying that thing. So, you know, we asked someone for help, and they were so nice to to do that one.

Yes.

Niall Murphy

Yep. Yep. Yeah. It happens happens a lot. It’s what I love about Glasgow, that people are prepared to do that.

Fay Young

Yes. Absolutely. Absolutely. So I was gonna ask we’ve got a couple of key questions that we ask on the podcast, and Niall I know Niall has got the one up his sleeve that will end the show. But the Yes.

The other one is, you know, how optimistic are you? The work that you do and the what we’ve talked about today does inevitably look at the the big challenges and the the depressing truths and realities that are around us, but there are also reasons to be cheerful. Do you find that in your work? I mean, can you give maybe 1 or 2 examples of reasons for hope?

Bash Khan

It’s a very good question. It’s a very tough question, because when we’re talking about optimism and, you know, especially in, the current situation that’s happening, you know, in Palestine and everything else, it’s really hard to think about that. You know, I think myself and and many other people have been really affected, I think, last few months with what’s going on. And I’ve actually worked with students from Gaza, through an on online project many years ago. So, you know, some very and the university that, of course, that they were working from no longer exists. It’s been completely obliterated.

Niall Murphy

That’s shocking.

Bash Khan

So when when you’re asking that question about optimism, it’s it’s very hard. And you really have to fight for it. You have to and I think that’s part of the fight as well, within the whole process. And and the reason why, I suppose, I always go back to this idea that we have to find places to connect because that’s the only place where you’ll find something real. Yeah.

Now, I said, through my process, you know, I get to meet amazing people. So On the Edge was nominated by people in the community. It wasn’t me choosing people. They were nominated by people from their own communities about things that people had done during during COVID and lockdown. And and some beautiful stories all around, you know, too many to talk about now, but one woman that I met, beautiful women.

She worked, in a care home, helping assisted I think assisted living. Is that right? Is that what it’s called? Yeah. Yes.

Yeah. Help people at the end stage of their life. And so I asked someone eventually, okay. Who’s this person? You know, what’s she done?

So one of the main reasons she wanted to nominate this woman was one of the women she cared for was turning a 100. So during COVID, she she got this beautiful big street party organised for her. Got papers down with sure everything was socially kinda destined and, you know, but made sure that that that moment wasn’t messed during COVID. Okay? And then that’s what the people told me.

So, of course, when I go and I meet people before we photograph them, I sit and talk to them for, you know, sometimes half an hour, an hour. An hour and a half is the longest we’ve had a chat. And then you realise that this woman and that was just one thing she’d she’d done for others during COVID. There was a whole range of things that she did, you know, beyond her job remit. Then during COVID, she actually lost her her her own son to suicide.

Now you’re sitting there and you’re talking away to her and the whole place has got photographs of her son on pillowcases and images and everything else, you know, And she’s got such courage. You’re speaking to this woman, and you’re just thinking. It goes, wow.

How would I put myself in her shoes? How would I and, honestly, the courage that women had kind of shown and the words that she’d kinda said just blew me away. I was like, wow, you know, and that was stuff that people not are not even really aware of that what underneath it all, what people are going through. Yeah. So when you’re seeing the optimism, then when you can grasp onto people like this and you realise that people go through huge challenges, and somehow they still manage to stand up and manage to rise up and still look out for others.

That’s the only bit of hope that I, you know, you know, that I see when I get to meet these kind of people. Yeah. So yeah.

Fay Young

Mhmm. Thank you. Yes.

Bash Khan

So there’s people like that, that’s you kind of think there’s still gotta be hope.

Fay Young

Yeah. Yeah. We need a moment after that, I think.

Niall Murphy

Yeah. That’s That’s that’s yeah. Profoundly sad. Okay. Shall I ask the final?

Fay Young

Release the question.

Niall Murphy

This is the this is the, yeah, the the loaded question, Bash. And we ask everybody this who comes on the podcast. And it is, what is your favourite building? Or I suppose if you wanted to, you could, have a public space in Glasgow. And what would it tell you if it’s walls could talk?

Bash Khan

My favourite building in Glasgow.

Niall Murphy

Yep. It doesn’t have to be a building, it could could could be a space.

Bash Khan

No. No. Actually, literally, no. No. two days ago, I I grew up around Kelvingrove Park.

And, actually, right now, I’m in, yeah, I’m in in the house that I grew up in, actually. I’m in here at the moment. Right. So and the other day, I was just driving past, and, of course, Kelvingrove Art Gallery and Museum was beautifully lit up. And as I drove past, I kinda went, you know what?

It wasn’t a bad place to grow up, but you’ve got that right there, okay, on your doorstep. But as a kid growing up, actually, the bandstand for us was also an amazing new place because when we were growing up, the bandstand was, shut down. It was kinda derelict. So we managed to kind of, course, kinda sneak in and mess around. We didn’t we didn’t set fires or anything or damage anything, but we enjoyed that was our back garden, really, that whole that whole area.

Niall Murphy

That’s lovely.

Bash Khan

So, definitely, like, Kelvingrove Art Gallery and Museum has got a special place, but, again and again, I love, there’s this beautiful big cafe in Kelvingrove Park next to next to the and as kids, we used to play there all the time. And at that time, there used to be toilets.

Niall Murphy

Yes. Yeah. I remember. Yeah.

Bash Khan

But even as a young kid, at that point, I would just say, do you know what? It’d be amazing if this wasn’t shut down toilets, but be something else. Yep. An Clachan the cafe.

Niall Murphy

Yeah. That’s the cafe.

Bash Khan

So, actually, that rebuilding itself, I really loved that little rebuilding going up because that’s literally our playground. So Kelvingrove Grove is is is special to me. So I would go with that one. Yeah.

Niall Murphy

Yeah. Fantastic. Good good choice. You’re actually the first person to have chosen Kelvingrove in the podcast so far. So which is which is very interesting.

So we’ve had

Bash Khan

Well, I was gonna go between the people. The toilets the toilets are exactly like, I said, those and do you know do you know what? Maybe I should be in the toilets. I think maybe I should be in the toilets because that’s a perfect example of a place that’s been very used for people again.

Niall Murphy

Yeah. Definitely. Definitely. Because it was, yeah, it was derelict for years. And yeah.

Absolutely. It’s a really good idea.

Bash Khan

Mhmm. And, again, as well as defense, how do we make our parks more safe? Well, if you add more lights and add more food carts and food places

Fay Young

Yep.

Bash Khan

You know, parts become safer.

Fay Young

Yep. Yes. You know? Yes.

Niall Murphy

It has been an issue in Glasgow because I know I remember when peep people had previously talked about putting up cafes in various places, there had been resistance. But, yeah, to me, it makes sense because it means you can use those spaces after dark, and they’ve they’ve become safer because there are people around you.

Bash Khan

That’s it. Yeah. There we go. Kelvingrove. Alright.

At the moment, actually, Kelvingrove’s quite interesting because I’m trying to write up some stories from the time I’ve kind of grown up around here. You know, in the good old days in the eighties, grown up around Kelvingrove . Mhmm. So, yeah, it was good to come back.

Niall Murphy: Very good.

Fay Young: We look forward to that.

Niall Murphy

Well, it was an absolute pleasure talking to you, Bash. Well yeah. Look forward to hearing those.

Fay Young

Yes. Thank you.

Bash Khan

Well, thank you so much for in in for inviting me. And, yeah, I was hopeful to see you guys at some point. That was a pleasure. In due course. Okay?

Fay Young

Yes. At a good gathering place. Okay.

Niall Murphy

Yes. Very much. Okay. Thank you, Bash.

Fay Young

Thank you.

Niall Murphy

That’s much appreciated.

Katharine Neil

Glasgow City Heritage Trust is an independent charity and grant funder that promotes the understanding, appreciation, and conservation of Glasgow’s historic built environment. Do you want to know more? Have a look at our website at glasgowheritage.org.uk and follow us on social media at Glasgow Heritage. This podcast was produced by Inner Ear for Glasgow City Heritage Trust and is sponsored by Tunnock’s.

Jude Barber

I remember sitting having a you know, when we were literally conceiving this project thinking, I have never seen a woman with gray or white hair on a platform talking about architecture, and I have seen hundreds and hundreds. I was very studious, you know, went to all the lectures. I’d not seen or read or heard or, you know, you know, apart from Zaha Hadid, of course, incredible architect, but, you know, she she was having to kinda carry the can for everyone. And actually, we thought, no, let’s let’s let’s let’s talk to these women, and so do it in a way and it’s a very simple concept, voice to experience. It’s bringing together older voices with younger voices, to talk about their work.

Fay Young

Welcome to this third series of If Glasgow’s Walls Could Talk. I’m Fay Young, and I’m very pleased to be hosting, today’s episode, which raises an important and and perhaps provocative question. If Glasgow’s walls could talk, how often would they tell the stories of the talented women architects who helped to make and shape our built environment? And it’s a great question to be asking on International Women’s Day, because this podcast recording just happens to be falling on the annual date when we celebrate the achievements of women worldwide, often telling their stories for the first time. And this year’s campaign theme is hashtag #inspireinclusion , and it seems a perfect fit for today’s guests.

Two successful women architects with a mission to reveal and celebrate the contributions women make to our built environment. So a very warm welcome to you, Jude Barber and Nicola McLachlan from Collective Architecture, an award winning practice with studios in Glasgow, Edinburgh, and Dundee. And what seems to me a a a very distinctive way of doing business, built on ethical principles. So welcome. And, you’re here to talk about voices of experience, a truly inspiring project to investigate and celebrate the untold stories of legendary women.

But perhaps we could start with you telling us a little bit about yourselves and what brought you into architecture. Jude, do you want to to go ahead?

Jude Barber

To start. Yeah. Thank you, Faye, and thanks for that lovely introduction. Yeah, we’re really delighted to be here today. And, yeah, getting into architecture, it’s interesting that you asked that because in voice of experience, this is one of the questions that we ask all our participants, actually.

So it’s really interesting to be getting this, sort of put back to us. I suppose for from my point of view just to start, I mean, I, I just loved making things. I just really was always drawing and making, and so as a younger person, it felt natural that that would be something that I might want to continue to do in terms of a career. And I was very fortunate that my parents and, my family and and my teachers were all very kind of open to thinking about what that might look like and feel like. But I was also very mindful about, you know, having a a vacation, getting sort of a a job at the end of whatever I was gonna do and train to be.

So architecture kind of felt like a really positive path. So I was although I didn’t really know any architects, it was something that kind of came through discussion with with those people that were supporting me in that way. And Nic?

Nicola McLachlan

For me, I suppose it was it was a little different. I hadn’t really ever considered, I suppose, what my career would be or even thought about it in the past. I think I’ve just been given a lot of really exciting opportunities, from from being in high school right up to even just now. So I I I think, for me, it was just taking opportunities when they came and, yeah, making connections, I think.

I started off doing my work experience at school in the building control offices and was given an opportunity to go and visit an architect’s practice in Dunoon and, I hadn’t really planned that. And then my art teacher also recommended me to go up to Chris Stewart Architects, which is now Collective to Architecture. And this was back in 2006 for a day trip. And one thing led to another, and I was offered a job as an architectural technician, straight out of school. So my pathway wasn’t really planned, but it was just some really fortunate opportunities into architecture and then sort of the rest is history, I think.

Fay Young

Yeah. Isn’t it interesting how chance can open up opportunities?

Nicola McLachlan

Yeah.

Fay Young

And, yeah, I suppose career paths at school are often, well, not as positive as yours sounds to have been. So that was that was a lucky break, I guess. But it also required you to be open to, you know, what was what was, being offered, I guess.

Nicola McLachlan

Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah.

Jude Barber

And it also shows how education is so important because you also did the part time course, which, again, wouldn’t have been, something that had happened, you know, several decades ago. This is something that that that now people can do and and peer, practice with with learning. So yeah. Yeah. I was just very, very fortunate to be given that opportunity.

Fay Young

And so that for for you both, leading on to, where you are now in Collective Architecture, Was that a a reasonably steady progress? Or

Jude Barber

Well, I mean, for me, I’d come from, other architectural practices, before coming to what was Chris Stewart Architects established by Chris Stewart in 1997. So I joined the practice kind of about 20 years ago. And it always had a, you know, a kind of value system, you know, built in around kind of listening to communities, participation, you know, a kind of strong sustainability, you know, environmental sort of strand. I don’t think Chris is very committed to with others. But over the time as well, we’ve we’ve moved into a full sort of employee ownership model.

So every single person here, 50 of us, owns and has agency over the business and what happens there. So, you know, the core kind of themes around, you know, that we like to work to are sort of social responsibility, design, and innovation. You know, you always want to be doing interesting things, and kind of fairness and equity so that everybody everyone that contributes to the business kind of shapes it and drives it. And, that’s that’s a really founding kind of principle, isn’t it?

Fay Young

Yeah. The website shows lovely smiling faces, so it looks like a good happy place. Nicola, you joined more recently. Is that right? 8 years?

Nicola McLachlan

I suppose I joined again, I suppose, permanently, about 8 years ago, but I originally joined back in 2,006. Oh. So just before actually it became Collective Architecture.

And so I was lucky to be part of that process back then. So I think we became Collective Architecture and employee owned in 2007. But since then, I mean, the practice has really supported my education and my career, and I’ve always sort of been in touch with the practice since then. And then, yeah, joined in back in 2015, I think it was, just before we opened up our Edinburgh studio. Ah,

Jude Barber: I think it’s interesting because we were both we’re both there’s sort of 20 years almost between us, but we’re both directors now. We both got made directors very young in our career as well. So I think that’s kind of interesting. Yes. Her kind of practice model, what it what it does for in and around women and their careers.

Fay Young

Yes. Yes. So that is, inspiring for thought that that it’s possible to to make progress in that kind of way, and with support as well. So, you know, you’re successful and and you’re part of a practice that encourages women to be successful, obviously, women and men, But when did you become aware that that’s perhaps not the the usual experience?

Nicola McLachlan

It’s an it’s interesting for me to think about that actually because my experience in practice was starting, like I said, 2006 at Collective Architecture or Chris Stewart and then Collective Architecture. And and by that point, Chris Stewart Architects Collective Architecture was actually already had a good gender balance by that time. So my initial experience in, practice, I I didn’t it it wasn’t obvious that, you know, there was a gap because it was quite fair. And the same in education, you know, the students that are coming in are it’s about a 50:50 split with men and women. But it wasn’t really until the end of my education and until, in fact, voices of experience, to be quite honest, that I started to reflect on experienced women in practice, the gaps there, and also just what my education looked like and reflecting on how many books I had that were all based on male architects, architects, and and all and all about them.

And and I think, it really wasn’t until Voice’s of experience really highlighted that there is a gap. And and, I mean, Jude, you’ve said some absolute cracking things that I’ll just never forget about, you know, why voices started and what encouraged you to

Fay Young

Yeah. To you

Jude Barber: and Suzanne. I mean, I think, you know, you do this long enough, and you see it all, and you hear it all. And I think there comes a point where, you know, I think for myself and Suzanne Ewing, who is one of the, you know, key co-founder with with with Nicola and myself, myself and Suzanne met, for a coffee actually because as a practice, we got involved in talking around gender imbalance in the profession. Because as Nicola says, although we both were fortunate to be in practices where there are, you know, men and women working cooperatively together, when we sort of popped our head above the path and looked around and, you know, we would sit in meetings and you sit in forums and you would, you know, see that kind of imbalance playing out more broadly. You know, you you start to ask questions. You know, why is this so stagnant?

Why is this so static? Why is this not changing? And I think there’s a startling statistic for us, back in oh, god. It must have been about 2007. Building design did a campaign, 50:50 campaign for gender balance in architecture.

And at that time, only 13% of architects, qualified architects were women. However, you know, as Nicola said, 50:50 were going through the education system. So the the question is, where do the women? You know, why are we not staying in the profession? And that’s just obviously a systemic issue, as to why women would be dropping out.

So I think one of the things that myself and and Suzanne did, we met for for a coffee and just talked about this. You know, why is this happening? And she was also saying in academia, it’s no better. Yeah. It’s a sort of a broad ranging issue.

And so we did that, and then later on when, there was the festival of architecture in 2016, I suppose we met again to talk about why the program had so few women in it. I mean, like, a dearth of women in it. The few token people mentioned. And what we were gonna do about it and and and and positively at the same time, Andy Summers and others were developing the idea of an architecture fringe, which would be sitting in parallel, to the side of the main festival and allowing other voices and other projects, to come through, that year. And so we together, Sam, Nicola, herself, we all set out and we concocted a project called, voices of experience.

We said, let’s do something really positive about this. Let’s not moan about what’s not happening. Let’s try and find out what is happening, and let’s make those connections. And Suzanne had had worked in an arts council, had heard about new people like Christine Borland, Margaret Richards, you know, names I didn’t know. And, one one of the things that Nicola is highlighting was I remember sitting having a you know, when we were literally conceiving this project thinking, I have never seen a woman with gray or white hair on a platform talking about architecture, and I have seen hundreds and hundreds

I was very studious when I went to all the lectures. I’d not seen or read or heard or, you know, you know, I don’t care about Zaha Hadid, of course, incredible architect. Yeah. But, you know, she she was having to kinda carry the can for everyone, so I think and actually, we thought, no, let’s let’s let’s let’s talk to these women.

And so do it in a way and it’s a very simple concept, voice to experience. It’s bringing together older voices with younger voices, to talk about their work.

Fay Young

Yeah. Yeah. It it’s such a wonderful simple. In fact, it makes me think it should be used in every industry and every profession.

Jude Barber

Yeah. Well, we’d love to roll out so we can maybe talk about Yeah. We do. Yeah. And and I think in a way for us as well, another thing that’s important as well about, voice experience is, we are focusing, obviously, on women, but we’re really talking about women’s work.

Ah. We’re talking about the contributions and their work as architects, as designers, as landscape architects, engineers, as clients, as commissioners. And to really understand that, that landscape of how we actually make places. So, you know, as Nicola was saying, you know, the hero books, the starkitext, the the singular genius, Much of the project kind of debunks that myth, and it is a myth. You know, it is an absolute myth that a singular person is There’s no doubt that our creative, inspiring people out there of all genders and all.

But, you know, this notion that we do it on our own, with somebody, you know, a bolt of lightning vision is is is not a truth. Yeah. And I think that there’s often contributions made across, you know, ranges, spectrums about, and I suppose what we are trying to do with the project is just to uncover uncover those things and tell those stories.

Fay Young

Yeah. Yes. What what about you, Nicola, in terms of just making those connections and and contacts? What was it for you that would seem to be important in in opening up conversations with with experienced women who weren’t getting the chance to to get a word in edgeways.

Nicola McLachlan

I I think when Suzanne just started talking about it, I just couldn’t believe. I hadn’t thought about it before. Like, it was our real moment. I was like, Jesus. Where are these women?

You know? And and I just I just wanted to join Jude and Suzanne on that investigation. And so I I immediately was like, absolutely. Let me get involved. I’ll be, you know, your younger participant.

And yeah. I mean and then and through this, I was paired up with Margaret Richards. And, I mean, I’ve said to you before, Fay, but it has completely changed my life. It’s the the project is absolutely fantastic and and and incredible and has sort of given us so much more than just trying to find out about these women’s career. It’s opened up friendships.

It’s opened up just so many stories and so many really, really amazing experiences for us and others. And it’s growing. It’s it’s continuing to grow. It’s amazing. Yeah.

Fay Young

Yeah. Well, we’ll talk we’ll talk a wee bit more about how that actually works, because I think that’s really interesting too. But were you one of the first, pairs, you and Margaret and Yeah. And yes. So had how was that how did it develop then? What was it like on your first meeting?

Nicola McLachlan

Well, I’ll never forget meeting Margaret for the first time. She came to our Edinburgh studio to meet Jude and I, and she walked in and, woah, was she serious, wasn’t she?

Fay Young

Yeah. Oh,

Nicola McLachlan

formidable. Yeah. Really. She was

Fay Young

Really? Really?

Nicola McLachlan

Yeah. She was oh, it’s incredible. I’ll honestly never forget it. She walked in, she sat down. She said, I want to be clear here.

I’m not anti men. And we were like, well, no. We are not anti men either. We could not do what we do without men. Absolutely.

And so it just really set the tone. And she was just just an incredible woman. Absolutely incredible woman. And has done so much in her career to support men and women. Yeah.

But it took it took quite a lot of sort of conversations with Margaret to start

Fay Youn

Yeah.

Nicola McLachlan

Convince her about our your your intentions. Yeah. Absolutely. And that we were genuinely interested in her career and what she’d done, and that that was an inspiring thing for us to to hear. So Yeah.

Yeah. I think, I’d never forget that. Do you remember she walked in?

Jude Barber

Yeah. And you’re friends now

Nicola McLachlan

Yes. Exactly. Margaret and I. Margaret sadly has passed away now. But, yeah, there was a 60 year age gap for us, and we just became Gosh, really, like, best pals. Like, we went down to , shared shared a static caravan. Honestly. Had sleepovers, lunches, boozy lunches. Went to events.

Yeah. We were became absolutely best pals, and it’s just Oh, that’s It’s been incredible. But that’s not just me, you know, due to you continue to be really good friends as well. Yeah.

Jude Barber

And I think that cross generational connection is really important because, you know, for a lot of these women, you know, if you’re thinking in their seventies, eighties, nineties, some of them have had these incredible, exciting careers. And then, you know, obviously, once that comes to an an end, the landscape of how we talk about architecture, the opportunities to do that kind of disappear. And, they’re not invited to be part and of things. And and I suppose for us, you know, it was really important. We through those friendships, we’re actually sharing knowledge and information.

You know, so the archive is kinda building up books, references, other, you know, routes to other women’s careers and making those those connections. So, yeah, no, it’s been a really, really inspiring journey. And I think it started as a pilot. You know, it started as a an experiment of 4 4 pairings, Nicole, obviously, being one of those with Margaret, with Heather Claridge, planner, teamed up with Kirsteen Borland that I mentioned earlier, talking about, how energy came to to Scotland, you know, because, Kirsteen was involved in oil coming to Scotland up in the Moray, Moray Coast, and Kirsteen was looking at green energy sorry. Heather was looking at green energy, in Glasgow. So, you know, it starts to become, you know, a bit of social history, really, about our nation. So there’s there’s there’s lots lots to to learn from. Yeah.

Fay Young

And that knowing just knowing what what the women have actually done, that that, as you were saying, becomes a lost value, lost resource.

Jude Barber

Yeah. Because we know because we know archives, you know, the the the sort of you know, the canon of of architecture design, hasn’t included women. And we know that that there are people who are written out or contributions are not recorded. And I think this project in a small, kind of modest way is trying to sort of recalibrate that. And importantly, I think Suzanne, as mentioned earlier, you know, she’s, she is an architect, trained architect, but is also professor, at ESALA in Edinburgh and we’re very fortunate that through her work and and her rigor, the project’s also connected to, you know, to formal archiving.

So now all the conversations are transcribed, cross referenced, and, archived at on the Data Share site. So it’s actually now been used as a as a research tool.

Fay Young

Fantastic. And so they’re easily accessible for anybody who’s interested in in In listening. Yeah. So, I’m I’m just intrigued to know more about Margaret. What was her story then? What what had she been doing?

Nicola McLachlan

Well, an important part of Voice of Experience for us as well, like you’ve mentioned, is very much about the work of women and highlighting the work and investigating the work. And so, the reason Margaret and I were paired together initially, was because both of us had worked down in Leith Fort in different capacities. So, Leith Fort 4 Margaret had, in the sixties, entered a competition to redevelop, an area down the Leith, which then when I started working down the Leith, that project she she her entry didn’t actually win in the end. But, the the the area which the competition was based had just been demolished. And and I was working on the project, the new project that was getting built.

So Margaret and I, that was where the anchor was between our our work. We had this sort of common relationship with Leith. And Yeah. And Margaret had also worked in a lot of housing down in London. In fact, I think, she was coined the drainage queen of Pimlico at one point.

She’s been working on all of this strategy for these large housing projects, which was very proud of. And it’s really fun.

Fay Young

I bet.

Nicola McLachlan

The drainage queen of Pimlico. And so we met down a lease on sites, wear hard hats on, and we walked around the new development down there just discussing housing and drainage and all sorts of different things. It was just incredible. And I think one thing as well, I think, you know, architecture is a career that is so wide ranging. I don’t think just from from my experience anyway with Margaret and and others, it doesn’t really leave you.

And I think that was what was incredible. You’re into your nineties and you’re still got so many opinions about how things should be, you know, housing, what rights you should have, you know, what fundamental rights we should have in homes and, access to green space and, you know, just I think that the big part of, my experience with voices is just, I think, that intergenerational elderly sort of views on society. I think, it sort of helps to sort of open people’s eyes to the value of older people, here, older women, and their contributions through their life and and still into their older years, I think.

Fay Young

Yes. And it’s it’s something that we that our society has become much more, insulated from, and what’s the word? I mean, we we we’ve we’ve parcelled up into to different categories and in more traditional, societies older people are very much part of the just the natural, rhythm of of and and younger people wouldn’t would naturally turn to their elders Yeah. For advice and well, you know, oh look it’s flooding. What did you do the last time it flooded?

Jude Barber

A 100%. And you know, we’re we we always laugh because, our our good friend, Anne Duff, who’s one of our participants, she was involved in the, the new housing in in Cumbernaulds, part of Newtown developments. She always you know, she would come to our events, and she you could just see her get because she was like, we were talking about this back in 1963. You know? And and it’s just really valuable to like, you you’re saying, Fay, to learn from the past.

And, you know, she you know, there are very few new ideas. You know, we actually it’s really important we continue to learn and build and understand really really willing to impart this knowledge and share it, when when invited and asked. And it’s just been really valuable for us thinking about, you know, where we sit in our careers as well. You know, I’m sort of mid career, and to to to to to learn from those that have have gone before. I think it’s also important that we were talking there about different voices and different different people that have been involved.

I mean, the big thing for us to see about the project is that, it’s always recorded on-site. So it’s not an interview. So although we are the hosts, we call ourselves the hosts, we sit in the background. We we ask a very simple set of questions. We have, like, 5 questions.

They’re always the same questions. So there’s a formula to how we run the voice of experience project. You know, 1, it has to be based on-site. 2, the participants have to have a work based connection. You know, there has to be something in common.

They obviously have to be at some different stages in their career. And 3, that it’s not an interview, you know, that it is actually, a conversation. And, what we found is that formula actually works quite well. We haven’t really we’ve adapted it slightly over the over the years, but, ultimately, it’s it’s always the same format, and it seems to be working. And then we have rules again about how we transcribe the conversations.

We don’t leave things out. It’s really important to have those pauses, the laughter, the umms and the ahs. You know? So it’s it’s very much a a sort of true record of of what’s been what’s been said. So all of those things kind of add up to the conversation, and we’re hoping to develop what we’re working on at the moment as a toolkit.

Because as you mentioned before, Fay, this is something that could be rolled out. I was talking to someone recently. It’s a lawyer, and she’s, well, we’ve been having these conversations at law society about how do we capture the voices. And we’re like, well, 100% happy for this toolkit to be used. And the other thing that’s really important is that there’s time and care taken around these things.

If you imagine you’re in your eighties, you’re you’re trying to recall things from maybe 50 years ago. Yes. Yes. And the names and the people and you’re you’re sort of always having to sort of dive back into your into your past as well. So it’s really important that we’re taking time and, it could take months to to set up a conversation

Fay Young

Really?

Jude Barber

Yeah. To make sure that Yeah that ultimately everyone feels comfortable and connected and willing to participate. And and share.

Fay Young

And and it sounds like with all that preparation, that there’s this, mutual respect and and feeling of equals.

Jude Barber

Absolutely. And in the conversation, you can just see see the kind of sparks between the women, you know, the older younger women. And we have we have a kind of final question where, you know, if you got any one bit of advice you wanna pass on. And those are always the best moments. There’s a bit of laughter. Yeah. So, they’re always quite good moments.

Nicola McLachlan: Stay in the swim?

Jude Barber: Stay in the swim. That was very we use it now in business, actually.

Fay Young

Yes. Yeah. Yeah. What what are the 5 questions that you ask?

Jude Barber

Oh, well, we ask obviously, the first like you asked ourselves, you know, what was your route into architecture or landscape architecture? We also ask, you know, what could you describe a little bit, like your your journey, like your learning, you know, education and journey? Tell us a little bit about that. Is there any kind of thing you know, what particularly interest you in in in studying? And then what was your first job?

Which, again, is an easy one and it’s kind of interesting. Everyone thinks what was actually my first job. An example of a project that you feel particularly, pleased about Mhmm. And why? And who supported and advised you maybe along your ways?

Is there anyone that kinda sticks out that you would like to talk about? And then, yeah, any advice you give to young people coming in to do what you’re doing. Yeah. So those are the kind that’s just a brief overview.

Fay Young

Yeah. Great.

Nicola McLachlan

Absolutely. And we have been expanding just from sort of architecture, conservation architecture, landscape architecture. We have been expanding that recently as well. So we’ve been having conversations with, well, I suppose the reason that we’re expanding it is because, I mean, even through these conversations, it’s highlighted that, you know, architecture is such a broad discipline. And for for for buildings to be built, for example, you know, there’s so many other disciplines that are involved in that.

And a key role in that is sort of studio managers or people behind the scenes who are sort of making sure all of this happens. So we’ve recently had a conversation, with that in mind, with Hilary Nicoll up in Dundee that was, the sort of studio administrator finance manager at Nicoll Russell Studios up in Dundee. So it’s really important to kinda get her story and perspective on being in practice in that way. So, yeah, the you know, we’re not, when we talk about important contributions, we’re not necessarily talking about, you know, whose names in the dictionary of Scottish Architecture. And that that that takes a little while sometimes with our participants to, to to talk about because many of us, you know, been we’re kinda having to unlearn that kind of idea that you have to just you know, if you weren’t the sort of top Yeah. You know, superstar pushed forward, from the practice, then your contributions don’t matter.

So I think that’s we’re kind of having to unravel a lot of that through the project as well.

Fay Young

And knowing how things if things work well, I suppose the people who clean the buildings, the people who, sit in reception, the, all the well, actually, even the people who deliver, you know, essential equipment and set it up. These are things that the mistakes that are made in design and construction really only begin to properly emerge once you start to use a building and live in it or work in it.

Jude Barber

A 100%, you know, it’s really you know, if he takes any of those parts away, you know, it doesn’t work. So it’s about valuing all the that can spectrum of how things are actually made and done and shaped. And and some of the things, you know, we’re talking you know, if we we’d like to talk to another conversation we’d like to have is maybe around with a commissioner, you know, people who actually commission architects and have, you know, someone who’s done that for, you know, decades because of people in mind, and those who are just beginning to do that as well. So, you know, it’s it’s it’s for us, it’s really trying to to to talk about that whole picture of shaping the built built environment and the people that have been involved in that.

Fay Young

And you were saying, that that you’re getting a growing number of of people, taking part and wanting to take part. Is is that right?

Nicola McLachlan

Yeah. I think, well, it’s a voluntary project. But given that, you know, we’re chatting to to people in their nineties, there is a sense of urgency to capture these stories. Yes. So, you know, even when we were chatting before about Margaret, you know, she would be like, oh, such and such would be fantastic, but she’s dead. You know? And and it’s a real you know, so there is a real urgency about capturing these stories. And and because it is a voluntary project, a lot of research goes into finding these people, pairing these people. And like Jake was saying, the sort of care and sensibility around pairings, that could be months pre meetings and reassuring people that this isn’t something that, they’ll feel uncomfortable with.

Because we have had people in the past who’d have just said, actually, you know, it’s not it’s not for me. I I don’t want to, you know, talk about myself. And you find that actually in a in a lot of women, that they just don’t think that their story’s valued or important enough to to be shared. So there is an urgency and there is a growing the project is definitely growing. But it is. And we’ve noticed what’s been quite interesting recently is that so we began doing conversations, and then we’ve moved into doing we did a lot of events as well associated with that. So, again, sort of roundtable, coffee morning type situations where we take our time and we have these these conversations together, and these are recorded and transcribed as well. And we’ve been doing that now for about 7 years. And another interesting kind of development of the project has been, kind of commissioning new work around this, sort of writing articles, publications, part partnerships with others.

So, for example, we’ve worked with Panel, who are amazing curatorial team, to do, we’ve done a publication called Remnants, you know, how you build a city. Yes. That looks fantastic. How you repair a city, and that that sort of focuses on the conversations, but it also, has some new work. For example, Rona Warwick Patterson went into the art art looked at some of our conversations and looked at the one that between, Fiona Sinclair and Maddy Lafferty, and she wrote, it’s not a poem, it’s like a piece.

She’s written a piece about that called Outwith. And she takes the voices and she puts her puts this together into a written piece. And then we’ve also had exhibitions, for example, like the mementos project which where we asked our participants to select one memento from their working life and then they write a small piece about that and that’s they’re presented in archive boxes. So we did that the Lighthouse centre for Design and architecture back in, I think, that was 2019 or something like that. So we’ve we’ve Architecture. For the architecture Fringe.

So we we, you know, we we’re kind of now moving into, ex the sort of opening up the archive and and exploring that in different through different media and with different partners and people. So that’s been that’s been a really kind of interesting outcome. And last year, we did an event, the Edinburgh Art, you know, festival with a conversation over there. So that’s really growing as well, which is which is super exciting. Yeah.

And we got pieces in the the V and A. Voices of Experience are now displayed in the V and A, and they’re Scottish Scottish gallery. Scottish gallery. And there was also an event last year as well in the V and A?

Fay Young

Was it?

Jude Barber

For International Women’s Day last last year. We had Diane Waters, the historian Diane Watters, and the, past president of RIAS, Christina Gaiger, speaking on a platform just about their their work, the V&A. So we’re really you know, this is what we’re starting to see is what we’ve been doing as a kind of sort of ad hoc. You know you know, we both work full time. So we’re doing you know, and and Suzanne as well.

We you know, what we’re finding is this work that we’ve been sort of gently building up and building up is now starting to form its own resource that the others, you know, really quite established organisations are starting to come to us and say, actually, we would like to maybe use parts of that because it allows us to tell a different story maybe about our our work too. Yeah.

Nicola McLachlan

And on Sunday, we’re actually hosting a conversation with Jim Johnson and Scott McAuley. And it’s been really lovely, actually, the conversations behind the scenes so far as, Scott’s really highlighted how influential Jim’s work, has been in his life. And they’re both real pioneers in sustainability and climate action. So really exciting. And that will be our 1st sort of male pairing, I suppose.

Fay Young

Fantastic. So where where is that taking place? Sorry.

Nicola McLachlan

Well, that is taking place in Creetown, and Jim’s where Jim lives. So Yeah. Myself and Suzanne and Scott are driving down there on Sunday. So it’s 3 hours of pre conversations and then a couple of hours down there with Jim and his wife. And we’ll have tea and cake and soup, and they’ve offered to have us for lunch.

So, yeah, it’s really exciting.

Fay Young

It’s great because, I mean, this this is social history,

Nicola McLachlan

It’s taken years actually to set that one up.

Fay Young

Has it? Yeah.

Nicola McLachlan

It has. These things take I mean, if you have a pandemic in the middle of it, it makes sense. But, yeah, definitely. These things do take time. And, so and as Jude was saying, because all all of the conversations are archived as well, we’re very fortunate to get funding, a lot of funding actually via Edinburgh University, and Suzanne’s sort of research there.

Jude Barber

Uh-huh.

Nicola McLachlan

Because that does take time and professionals to transcribe things and then put them onto the data share. There was a lot of work that goes into actually making these research to researchers making the this a research tool or resource. So, yeah, it’s just getting the right conversations and then doing it properly, which it started off, you know, just like Jade was saying. We we we didn’t really plan for it to go as far as it has, which is exciting.

Fay Young

It is very exciting, and it it is you’re obviously tapping into a need to, learn from from experience, across a whole range of activities.

Jude Barber

Absolutely. And it’s, you know, it’s a kind of global, matter. I mean, we’ve been very fortunate as well that the project and and, you know, some of us have been invited over to places like Melbourne to talk, you know, through, with sort of, sister organizations like Parlour.org.au. If you haven’t heard about them, they’re absolutely amazing. They’re doing incredible work over, in that part of the world, around sort of women and and gender equity.

And, they’ve invited us to take part. Suzanne was just there last year. I was there maybe, like, 4 or 5 years ago. We’ve also taken part in, various events down in London and, in Spain. So there’s there’s definitely something there around to kind of be part of a a sort of growing movement of of of people doing work in this area.

And Suzanne’s also involved in an amazing research project as well called Women Make Cities. So I think that ties very much into what, partly what we’re trying to do, but obviously that’s a broader project which is really growing attraction. So that’s that’s exciting as well.

Fay Young

Yeah. That does sound fascinating. And is is that, across the whole all the different aspects of life in a city?

Jude Barber

Yes. It looks back to sort of history and, you know, there’s one, example that that Suzanne was, talking about with one of her researchers. It’s all about just street sellers in Edinburgh and how women had been very visible in the street selling, and this kind of informal trading that happened at one time. And then, of course, they got through to to laws what moved on. And then that visibility of women in the space sort of changed the the in in the character of the city.

So it’s just important that we kind of understand that kind of dynamic between, the pop you know, the politics space and women’s role within that. And, particularly in International Women’s Day, we’re hearing a lot about this, at the moment. And, you know, we’ve got organizations such as, like, Making Space for Girls talking about how do we encourage, you know, open spaces to to allow young women to participate and be in those spaces because we know that they currently don’t feel comfortable in those spaces. So there’s there are a lot of really positive initiatives around this. And I think one thing we found with voice of experience is that we we have a very particular way of exploring women’s role in the built environment, and we’re we think having that clarity of method is is really key.

Mhmm. And then seeing it as part of a bigger landscape of of of people doing incredible work to sort of highlight, women’s experience and spaces is is something that we’re very mindful of.

Fay Young

And I think when we had an earlier chat, you were talking about well, and you’ve already mentioned pairing men as well, but but other, what we call minorities, there’s a scope for for encouraging those opening up those conversations and learning.

Jude Barber

Yeah. Exactly. And as Nicola said, you know, it’s called Voices of Experience. So it’s about telling those kind of untold stories. And we know, and, you know, when we think about, black experience, people of colour, when we think about, people of different, you know, sexualities, neurodiversity, when we think about, you know, pedialism, all of these sort of your whiteness class.

It’s it’s it for us, I think we feel like there’s, you know, so much more that we could do with the project and that we could be building on, in and around, telling those different stories, have heeding those different voices, and also that kind of intergenerational, perspective on on that. So that’s definitely where we would love the project to continue to to, you know, to grow and move forward in that way. But

Fay Young

Yeah. Yes. I’m feeling quite up listening to all that you’re doing, but I I you quite often, I start the day feeling down. You know, you just have to you just have to look at the today’s news. But through your work, it’s it’s one of the the questions, that has evolved as one of our set questions on If Glasgow’s Walls Could Talk.

Where are the reasons for hope? And are you you you do seem to be uncovering lots of reasons for hope, but but I feel very strongly that we we get so much doom, and it’s important to know what’s going wrong and what is wrong. But we also need to pair that with a, well, what do we do about it? And, because otherwise we give up.

Jude Barber

I mean, a 100%. I mean, that that initial conversation that I had with Suzanne about, you know, this is ridiculous that, You know, we’re losing women. They’re you know, the landscape’s terrible. You know, guys say stuff should so patronizing all the time. You sit and meet and see the only women in the room.

It’s so boring, so tedious. Said, well, actually, you know, you could spend all your energy, like, getting completely eaten up by that, or we could actually do something that fills the gap, fills that void, and we get massive enjoyment from doing it. Mhmm. And, you know, we know a lot of really positive things come from small seeds, and you know, individuals just doing something hopeful. And so, you know, we talk about society, but, you know, we’re part of that.

So society is built by loads of individuals doing things. So I think, in a small way, you know, this project is is trying to fill that gap or challenge the status quo, but to do it in a way that actually gives us enormous joy. And we, you know, we, like Nicola said, it it changed our life. It feel it has changed my life too. And I think, it’s about shifting the balance and relearning how to do things.

And I think I would say to anybody listening or, you know, people who are thinking appreciated by anything, they’re doing a thing. Well, what can you actually do in yourself that would just make that, you know, just make that we step forward in in what you want to see happen and and and do your best to do it. And I’m I’m I’m aware of my privilege as well, you know, why you’re in the classroom and whatever. But, you know, I just think, well, I’m gonna use you know, I’m gonna make the most of that and and be mindful of that privilege, but let’s try and do something about about all.

Nicola McLachlan

Oh, exactly. And if you just think how many women with wood gray white hair have been on a platform now? Oh, we just lost the one the one thing that started it. You know, that opportunity has come Yeah.

Jude Barber

We’ve had, like, about 10 events now. So you think we’ve all been full of you know Yeah. Women talking, Older women holding the microphone. Yeah. It’s brilliant.

Fay Young

Absolutely. You’ve got good pictures of all these wonderful white haired women.

Jude Barber

Absolutely. Really articulate, passionate Yes. Funny

Fay Young

Yes. And knowledgeable people. Yeah. That when I was when I was last in Paris, walking along the street up in Montmartre, there was a really wonderful mural of an older woman with white, wispy, flyaway hair and lots and lots of lines. She was absolutely beautiful, and the look on her face was a sort of benign amusement as though, you know, passersby, I know what you’re doing.

I I’ve been there before. It was just Oh, absolutely.

Nicola McLachlan

Exactly. Yeah.

Jude Barber

Yeah. Yeah. A 100%. And and we know that, you know, you know, the the war on women’s bodies, how we see ourselves, how we’re we’re supposed to be in public, is is is so deep set in society. And I think, for us, you know, to see, women in her nineties holding a microphone, talking about what she’s doing in these typically, I mean, I was thinking of Kirsty Borland in that gorgeous pink suit that she has, you know, looking so stylish, so composed.

Mhmm. And I think, you know, just to even see that happening live is is is an incredible thing. So I think the fact that we’ve had those opportunities to be in those spaces has been yeah. It’s been

Nicola McLachlan

I remember Margaret called me before our first event. I was like, what are you wearing? And then I called you. I was like, Margaret, she’s asking me what I’m wearing.

Fay Young: Do you remember what you’re wearing?

Nicola McLachlan

Oh, I would’ve just said something black. No doubt. But she was like, well, I’m going to wear a white shirt and some sort of jumper. I don’t ever say that. Perfect.

But it’s just these little these little what is it because it was a a silly thing, but it just brings you in common. You know, we’re all thinking what are we gonna wear to be on stage, and it doesn’t matter what age you are. It just it’s it’s really little simple things like that that have really pulled us all together. It’s it sounds really strange, but it it it really has sort of brought those generations together through Yeah. Experience.

 

Fay Young

That that is a lovely heartwarming thought. We we’ve actually, amazingly enough, come to the the the end nearly nearly. And, this is the question that Niall Murphy always gets great, joy out of asking. The one, that asks you what your favourite Glasgow building is, and what it would say if its walls could talk.

Nicola McLachlan

I was laughing with Jude because I actually just spotted that question right before. And when you to ask an architect that question is it’s pretty loaded. It’s no pressure. It’s quite a difficult thing. What’s your favorite building?

Fay Young

You’ve just explained something to me because Niall always introduces that as a loaded question. And, you know, the journalist in me are thinking, well, it’s not loaded. It’s a straight question. But, yeah, he’s he’s an architect. Of course.

Nicola McLachlan

So Do you know a funny story, actually. I’m just remembering is my interview, for the Mac. Part of the questions for your interview was what’s your favourite building? And I remember sitting there, and we were filling it out before we were all queued up. There was about 10 of us in the room, and I said to the girl next to me, what’s your favorite building?

And she she pointed at her form that said the Gherkin. And I remember thinking, the Gherkin? I don’t even know what that is, but I just put the Gherkin down. And I was in there, and she thought, don’t I don’t I don’t even know what that is, but I just put the Gherkin down And I was in there and she thought, don’t ask me because the the only buildings I really had ever thought about is ones that collection actually had done at the time. And I was like, just that housing project in Paisley.

What am I gonna say? Is that really Glasgow? And I was like freaking out. It’s always a quite a loaded question for me to answer. Right. And I was like, student, I don’t know what I’m gonna say. But I think just even what we started talking about is, like, buildings and the importance of, like, memories and well, actually, the theme of this is, you know, within the walls what we can see.

Fay Young

Yes.

Nicola McLachlan

And I think for me, the the strongest memories of buildings in Glasgow is up at the campus at the the GSA, so in the Bourdon building where I studied just because it’s where it’s formed most of my thinking at the time and made lots of friends. And just I spent so so many hours in the studio there. I think that’s where I feel when that question when I seen that question this morning, I went immediately up to the building. So I don’t know the the reason that’s loaded is is because, you know, aesthetically are we talking about or, you know, how it works inside or what materials has been used. Or it’s a very difficult kind of question.

And and for me, I think it’s just about memories. Yes. So that’s that’s my answer. Sorry. Quite an odd answer.

Fay Young

No. And, Jude, what about you?

Jude Barber

Yeah. I know. Similarly to Nicola. Oh. But I I think if I think about places I’ve been that have really had a massive influence on me, I think that there’s one building that really stands out for me.

It’s not so much the the building, although that’s entirely part of it. It’s just the organisation. So I’m it’s the Glasgow Women’s Library. So, you know, I’ve had, you talk about things changing your life, but, for the show notes, it’s, an old Carnegie building up in Bridgeton, east end of Glasgow, listed building. And, the women’s library, is a fantastic organization of charity.

Full disclosure, I’m currently the chair, and, I’ve been on the board for about 6 years now. But we first, came to learn about this this amazing, building and an organization, collective architect. We we we we, designed their new home, in Bridgeton when they moved from the Mitchell Library. And I think working with the women’s library is just it’s been an absolute, like, revelation for me, particularly as a woman in construction. It just opened my eyes to the just women’s struggles, the opportunities that that that can come from from taking a feminist approach.

And so and the work that Sue and Adele, there and all the founders have you know, the work they’ve done to build this incredible resource. It’s the only accredited museum to women’s history in the UK, and it’s here in the east end of Glasgow, which is fantastic. And the building itself is amazing. You know, Carnegie, that whole concept of learning and democratizing that is key. And then to think that, you know, women’s history is something that we can all go along and find out about in this space is is amazing.

And the way that the organisation does that through events, through programs, through workshops, through just a hugely inclusive kind of program. I think today, on International Women’s Day, I think I can’t think of a Yeah. A better organisation to be talking about. And and so as I build it, you know, what does that building you know, when you say, like, if it’s walls, could talk. I think it’s walls do talk.

I think it already talks. And even the lift tower’s got, you know, right, you know, titles from from incredible, women women’s literature on it. So I think it it it just that building just lives and breathes, and everything goes on it goes on and continues to flourish. So, yeah, that’s definitely the big one for me. Yeah.

Fay Young

Well, I I I totally understand what you’ve both said. You know, buildings are where people spend their lives sometimes, born and die, and and memories are an absolutely essential part of buildings, but also the the Glasgow Women’s Library is a I’ve I’ve been lucky enough to to to go to a couple of events there and meet some of the people there. It is a really inspiring place and a perfect choice for International Women’s Day most definitely. It’s just been a real pleasure talking to you both. This is the first time I’ve hosted on on this really lovely series.

So thank you for making it a really terrific experience and I I just thinking what you’re doing is tremendous. You you’re creating a real treasure chest of of, celebrate celebrating, you know, human achievements. They they happen to be women’s achievements, but it’s it’s about humanity, isn’t it? And, how we build, the world we live in.

Jude Barber:

That is. Yeah. Yeah. Well, thank you so much for inviting us. It’s been a pleasure. Thank you, Faye

Nicola McLachlan

Thank you. Yes. Thank you so much.

Katharine Neil

Glasgow City Heritage Trust is an independent charity and grant funder that promotes the understanding, appreciation, and conservation of Glasgow’s historic built environment. Do you want to know more? Have a look at our website atglasgowheritage.org.uk and follow us on social media at glasgowheritage. This podcast was produced by Inner Ear for Glasgow City Heritage Trust and is sponsored by Tunnock’s

Ume Chauhdry

Thistle is actually a Scottish flower, and it represents Scottish history and culture. It has positive connection and a sign of resilience, strength, and pride. And dandelion is a very resilient flower. It can grow anywhere in the world, and it’s fragile like, women, come from all over the world, and they are asylum seekers and refugee and maybe somebody bright, and they are fragile in this new environment. Thistle represent Scotland and dandelion represent the women they come, in this, country.

Niall Murphy

Hello everyone and welcome to If Glasgow’s Walls Could Talk. I’m Niall Murphy.

Fay Young

And I’m Fay Young. It’s really interesting how buildings can embody emotion. And with this thistles and dandelions interview with Layla and Ume, it was really interesting how they responded to the buildings around them, in the David Livingstone project, the Empower Women project that took them inside the museum. But also, especially as they walked around the city, Layla talked about the comfort she got from looking at at these grand Glasgow buildings. And I I wonder what you feel about that, Neil, that, you know, that a a sort of emotional response to a building.

Niall Murphy

I think that’s very interesting, and I think it’s key. It’s about looking for ways to find your way, you know, find some niche that can potentially become your home. So I think buildings can serve a role in that. I’m I’m kind of I’m very interested in the role that buildings play in memory and association. So I think there is potentially something very interesting there.

Fay Young

Yes. It’s a really interesting conversation. Welcome to you both, Layla and Ume. We have such a lot to talk about about your work, but let’s start perhaps with you telling us a little bit about yourselves and how you come to be here.

Ume Chauhdry

My name is Ume Chaudhry, and I came to Glasgow from Pakistan in 1994 after my marriage. My parent-in-law living here since 1960s . I have Master degree in Persian language and literature. I speak 4 languages, Urdu, Punjabi, English, and Persian. I left behind my family, my ambition, my culture, my study, and my friends to come here.

Here, I end up leaving my in laws, and, my hope was to do my study, learn new things, integrate in society. But all this fade away when most Asian women, when they come here and, in laws show them the kitchen, and that is and they say, that is your new life. Good luck. So they don’t care about isolation, stress, depression, only communication through in-laws, and you have to obey the orders. So after lots of struggle, me and my husband managed to get our own place.

I started to improve my English, and I study at Open University, IT and informational technology. I used to do, voluntary with Amna, the Muslim Resource Center helpline. But every week, I used to, meet my friend, and she was one of the staff in empower women. And, actually, she was, a volunteer coordinator for the Thistle and Dandelion project. She She said, if you are struggling to find job, why you don’t join empower women for change, a heritage museum project while searching for job?

I said I am not interested in past history, heritage, and museum because these things are not too boring for me. I’m a coding person, but she insisted, please come on induction day. If you like, fine. Otherwise, trophies. My friends are very dear to me because I love them, so I always give them respect and value.

I said, okay. If you insist, I will come. So I went to introduce, Sunday in February, and it was a merchant house building. I entered the building, and we gathered, and, everybody was new to each other. So when the project voluntary coordinator give us little bit introduction about merchant house, the building, so I found out the building had been used as a slave merchant business in 18th Century, and it was a tobacco as well.

They were using, for tobacco business and for slavery. Then, immediately, one point come to my mind, how time change. Now Empowered Women for Change has two room occupied to help global and ethic minority group, especially asylum seeker, refugee. And that building and empower women for change touched my heart, and I decided to join the project. Now I will hand it to Layla.

Layla Sadr Hashem

Yeah. I arrived in Glasgow more than 8 years ago, through my husband’s visa student. In my country, I studied master of art in Farsi, language and literature. I used to work, in a magazine as an editor, and a short story writer. Also, I taught at university as a visiting lecturer and a teacher at a secondary school.

When I came here, I realised that, I cannot do anything with my, degree. So I had to start from the beginning.  studied ESOL 3 years, then, I changed my field, and I studied 3 years art and design at Kelvin College, which was very, very good experience.

Fay Young

Both bringing different stories and a lot of, change in your lives. What was it like when you arrived in Glasgow coming from very, very different cultures and backgrounds? How how did the city look and feel to you?

Ume Chauhdry

It felt to me it was very cold. So so I have to wear lots of clothes. And another thing is it it was very peaceful. And when I used to go out, everybody was welcoming and hello, and they were talking about, oh, weather is nice. Oh, weather is too bad or it’s raining all the time.

And people were very friendly, because I was new. Sometime, I asked the way, and they were giving me direction. So usually, I was just staying at home or In the kitchen? Going for yes. In the kitchen.

And and then little bit going for shopping. And I used to go with my husband. He was very good, and he was showing me all the places. And we went to, Loch Lomond first time. I just love it because I always loved the, natural beauty.

And then we went to Edinburgh, and we went to Helensburgh. Helensburgh actually was my favorite and, and different places. Not much because he was doing job, and we used to go on weekend. And we used to go to work with different park, like, Kelvin Park or Botanic Garden. So it was good, but, mostly, I was just at home.

And, but people was nice. People are nice, and this was my experience. Very friendly. And I used to go to I I I’m just now going to mosque, but before, I used to go to mosque as well.

Fay Young

You did speak English. Is that right? When yeah.

Ume Chauhdry

Yes. I used to speak very little English, but because we have one subject in English in school and college, so I did understand. But I didn’t understand the, Scottish accent. That’s when one day, I was out, and they would say, give us a cup of coffee. So I asked my husband what that means.

So they said, give us a cup of coffee. So I said, alright. So they have different, little bit different accents, so it was very difficult to understand. But sometime, my husband was with me, and he was translating and explaining, right, because he’s born part of here, so he knew everything. So he was helping me out.

Fay Young

You had your own translator. Yes. Yes. At first. And what about you, Layla? When when you arrived here in Glasgow, how did it feel?

Layla Sadr Hashem

Yeah. My experience is, different, from Ume. When I lived in Iran, I used to think immigration is something easy. Like, we put our stuff in a luggage, and we go somewhere with lots of opportunities, and we live peacefully. But the reality was completely different for me.

From the first days, I faced difficulties, and, yeah, from simple things like getting on the bus to complicated things. I face cultural, and language barriers. Especially language barrier, makes people more isolated. You know that, learning another language, when you are old, is not something easy, But, I think immigration has also a positive side. The positive side with, which I connected my self was, my, familiarity with a new culture and new traditions, as well as its civil architecture and heritage.

I think it was indeed unique and exceptional to me. As I stated, at first, I was isolated with no friends, no family. So when I went to the town, I would look on historical buildings with embedded sculptures. They were completely impressive. I used to even stay for a while, reflecting on the design and beauty, of those buildings, even though residents might take it take them, for granted.

Yeah. But, it was amazing for me.

Fay Young

So that that that’s that’s a really interesting two 2 sides of of your experience, the the the isolation and and yet the excitement, perhaps, of seeing a new environment and one so different from from where you’d come from as well. So for you both, was there a turning point in terms of just getting a a rhythm and a natural sort of sense of being in the city? How does Empower Women for Change feature in this story for you?

Layla Sadr Hashem

I first saw the ad on Instagram without knowing what it was exactly. I registered, then, I received an email, that my application, was successful. Then, I was invited for the introduction session, at, Empower Women For Change office after being isolated for a long time, especially following the pandemic. I came to meet with new people and lovely community.

Empower Women for Change, is an, organisation led by women only and, was established by Asmaa Abdullah in 2015 to help minority ethnic women integrate and thrive as well as find a meaning in their life. The organization, really proved, successful in its program, to support the increasing need of, diverse, women, towards integration and positive engagement As, it is meant to empower women, its project and services are mainly dedicated to promoting its community through, boosting confidence, active participation, and full engagement. Also, Asma, the CEO of the organization, does her best to improve the minority’s well-being, mental health, learning English, physical health, and so on.

Ume Chauhdry

I want to add further about their list of projects, community engagement project, where they, women go out and, do different things, activities, art and craft, or cycling, or other food security project, which is I I’m responsible. See, recently, me and Layla. So I I I’m responsible to document all all the food security and commands of people and how how many are benefiting and what kind of food comes. So Nusco talent project is linked with, Glasgow City College, and, they are organizing for them the ESoL classes, sewing classes, and cooking classes, and then accountancy, and, me, myself, like, new voluntary courses, which I do every Thursday. And household hardship fund, they did last year and who have difficulty to support their family and buy things.

So they give them water on maybe direct sending money some money to their bank. And to empower in creative project is art and craft teaching milestone is recently finished, and, Layla was, I think, a member of this voluntary with this project, and they did most of their activities in GOMA. Inspired women project is same. They have workshops and different kind of and then Thistle and Dandelion Residence Project, that we did last year. And, one thing I I’m just admiring about CEO Asmaa Abdullah, she is saying I treat my staff and voluntary as a family.

I just love it love this sentence, and I decided to do voluntary in this, organization. And she’s really actually proved this because I saw her, if the staff are voluntary busy. The she cleaned the place herself. She’s throwing the rubbish, and she’s asking everybody, are you alright? You need anything?

And if there is extra food, she she said, if you need it, you just take it. And is this she’s just a lovely woman, and that’s why everybody stick to, like her children. So if they say something in anger and anything, we just think as a mother mother, she’s talking to children.

Fay Young

That’s a great image of an organisation that works because of the leadership at the top inspiring throughout from the bottom to the top. It it’s how the best places work, I think. So tell us more about Thistles and dandelions then.

Layla Sadr Hashem

The thistles and dandelion, the project lasted 10 months. The volunteers, took part, in monthly heritage skills workshop, and the project had collaboration with David Livingstone Birthplace Museum. At the museum, the professionals introduced some workshops and sessions such as, object handling, collections care, and, visitor services. The aim of the of this project was to support, the volunteers to build, different skills, to see themselves within Scottish heritage, stories, collections, and item. In addition, the volunteers, increased their knowledge about Scottish heritage sector.

We also developed some skills in mindfulness, confidence building, personal development, and so on. The project, itself gave me new insights regarding Scotland heritage. And now, even, I could see the story behind the collections, at museums. Even when I go, to museum, I feel, I am connected, to the items and collections, and I have nostalgic really nostalgic feelings toward them. Maybe Ume might want to explain more.

Ume Chauhdry

Yes. Thank you, Layla. So I wanted to explain about the name Thistle and Dandelion. And the, the name was been selected by Empower Women for two staff members, like Fizek and his project volunteer coordinator and Salma, another senior staff member. The reason to choose the thistle thistle is actually a Scottish flower, and it represents Scottish history and culture.

That’s why it’s, it has positive connection and a sign of resilience, strength, and pride. And dandelion is a very resilient flower. It can grow anywhere in the world, and it’s fragile. Like, women, come from all over the world, and they are asylum seeker and refugee and maybe somebody bright, and they are fragile in this new, environment. So they they choose actually represent, thistle represent Scotland, and dandelion represent the women.

They come in this, country. We visit different historical places like art gallery, Goma Museum. We did fun art workshop and, Burrell Collection. And we went to Burrell Collection. I was inspired because it was remind me my own country, the characters and the objects.

And, I decided to compare them, 18th century objects and characters, to my country. Just now, they are still exist. So that’s why I was quite interested. And they did lots of workshop. Like, we went to Glasgow Women Library, and we didn’t know about this library at all.

I, it was new to me. So, it was, we did art and craft workshop. We did speech therapy workshop, and we did storytelling with Anna Lehr from Glasgow Museum. And we went to Hidden Garden, Tramway, and visit an air fabric exhibition we saw and was quite interested to us. And we did, visit to Hunterian Museum as well. So this unique museum, like, we see I wanted to, talk about little bit about David Livingstone Museum. So David Livingstone Museum birth place is only independent museum in Scotland that directed the preserving the legacy of David Livingstone and reexamine his work with the complex and painful reality of slavery and 19th century European attitude toward African people and community group. So, David Livingstone fight for this, slavery, and he wanted to free and change the attitude of British and European people. And he struggled about this a lot, and he got enemy as well, but he didn’t give up. So that that’s why the David Livingstone Museum attract me.

Fay Young

Yeah. So which objects or artifacts had this connection for you?

Ume Chauhdry

So I don’t I wanted to compare his childhood life and, his character his wife characters and objects. He grew up in a a Scottish family environment of personal like, they have poor. They they did hard work, and they because of poverty, they were prevent for education. And David Livingstone born, in March 1813, , Blanchard, Scotland. His parent was very poor, and he was living with his brother and sister and with his parents in a small single room at the top of tennement building that is the museum, just now, the David Livingstone Museum, for workers of court.

And there were 6 to 8 families living there with their children in small, building. It was a cotton factory, that time, and they was working there. And they were working 6 AM to 8 PM. And David Livingstone family has small room there, and this whole house was in this small room. And they have kitchen kitchen in their bedroom, bathroom, everything in this small room.

And I was wondering how they were living there. And they were using children as, labour, and, they were working in cotton mill. So I was wondering when I saw this and their story, I was wondering, it is still exist in our country. Yes. Not in Pakistan, in India, Bangladesh, Silica.

They are still using child labour. And even UK biggest brand, they have factories in these countries, and the very little children, salary is very little and less than 1 pound, and they have to do hard work to feed their family. Another thing is that they are very good. Their hands are very good in especially, they are used in carpet factories. So this was, comparing from 18th century, child labor to just now, and and it’s just going on.

And other, I compared with David Livingstone, wife. She actually born in 1821 in South Africa. Her father was Robert Moffett and Scottish missionary. And David met her father, and they married in 19th January 1845 . She was experienced traveller, and she knows several languages. And she helped David in Africa a lot with his machinery work. But because David want her to be safe and her children to be recognised as a Scottish, he he sent her and her his children to Scotland. And now her life as a bride in Scotland was similar with our Asian women who comes here. And, her in laws didn’t accept her, and it was very difficult for her to socialize in Scottish society due to her different English accent. She didn’t like climate.

That’s why I compared our life to her because she was in same situation in 18th century. More or less, we face same problems. She has house and everything there, and she went back to Africa without telling her in laws.

Layla Sadr Hashem

Yeah. And when you go to the David, Livingstone Museum, the environment is very, very nostalgic. And as Ume said, I remember that we had that iron in our home. When I was very young, I remember that my mom put the iron on on oven. When it got, very, very hot, my mom used to, like, iron our uniform when I wanted to go to school.

It was working without any electricity.

Fay Young

It’s interesting to hear you both say that because my granny in in Ireland, in fact, until she died, the iron was was exactly as you describe. It was heated on the stove. So your stories are connecting, from the David Livingstone Foundation or Museum rather. You’re telling stories that connect across so much of the world and your own personal connections as well. It’s it’s really fascinating.

So what, has arisen from that? Are you doing more of that kind of work? Do you feel differently about other museums and collections?

Ume Chauhdry

Yes. It was absolutely unique museum because it reminds us to our country and, we feel happy and, especially, slavery, child labor. I was quite upset and sad, but but they they were doing, different workshop shop with us. So they knew, what we will feel and how we will feel. So they did mindful and well-being session, art and craft session, and photography.

Then they engage us to to be very happy, excited, and do something. So, it was very good for us, and it was, absolutely you unique museum because before I used to go with my husband to art gallery and museum, we just, walking around and, looking something, reading something, and that’s all. But this museum speak to us and every object, especially in living room. And okay. Some ladies was from Africa, and they were very interested and engaged in African objects and characters.

And we engage actually, me and Layla was quite interested in David Livingstone’s bathroom. And, it was very good because some poor people, live, in Pakistan like this or in Iran or in a very small place and very, very big family, and they don’t have enough money to buy big houses. But, I was so shocked, how, same time the, this building was a factory and living for a 5 family and was very hard. Most interesting and amazing thing for me to say that leaving Livingstone, working from 6 o’clock to 8 o’clock in this factory, and then he studied from Glasgow University. And he was walking every day from Blantyre to Glasgow, University.

That time, winter was full of snow, and I was amazed how he did that. It was quite amazing. And other thing is his wife life and his, actually, I inspired with his mother because his religious training and other training was quite influenced on David Livingstone character and personality. So, she was raising 6, 7 children and doing everything for them. I remember my parents.

I have 6 brother and sister. And my mother, how she was teasing us, we were not a middle class in lower middle class, but we were all educated. And now our life become better, like David Livingstone, brother and sister, and his life changed, and then they moved from that building. And, like, we moved from our house and bought bigger house. So it was quite interesting, and I just love this museum.

Layla Sadr Hashem

Yeah. He had amazing character, really.

Fay Young

So you both have responded very personally to what you learned. And and it is very striking, this connection between the past and the present and how some things just don’t change. Can you tell us a little bit about how what you’ve gained from this experience, how how it is part of the continuing influence of Empower Women. And the experience you’ve gained from this, how it reinforces your own self confidence and connection with the city. Glasgow is such a great multicultural city, but the skills and talents of ethnic minority people are not always fully put to good use.

Do you feel that something like Thistles and Dandelions and Empower Women for Change indeed, can help to change the balance of that?

Ume Chauhdry

I can say that because, when we came here and we I was living in the house and looking after my kids, and, I didn’t, go out quite often. But since I joined this project, I met lots of lady from all over the world, and I made friendship. And, usually, I didn’t like to speak to people, in front of people, and I had lack of confidence. Even I was I used to do study, but when, come to the presentation, I said no because, I just scared to speak at front of people. But, since I, did the tour guide and met different kind of professional people, and they were doing workshop.

And, speech therapy was quite helpful for me when they organise in women library. So, I got more confidence. I’m not a same person now. Now I am quite confident, and now I develop heritage skills through searching about object and handling object, and that was quite good. Actually, well-being workshops reduce my stress and depression.

And another amazing thing is because, I knew IT and information technology, but I developed new digital skill use search method and about object writing short reports and writing below. That improves my digital skill, improved as well.

Layla Sadr Hashem

As you mentioned, exactly, the same for me. I gained, confidence, because I was isolated completely, especially during coronavirus. And then when we, like, went to the introduction session at the first, like, session, we I met lovely women, and I made friends even. And during these 10 months, I gained self confidence, and even the project gave me insight to see, more deeply when I go to museums, different museums. Now I can, see the story behind collection, and, it gave me, very deep insight regarding Scotland heritage, Scottish heritage.

And, now I more, like, feel Glasgow or Scotland is like my home, really, my home.

Fay Young

Yeah. That’s that’s quite a remarkable outcome from this, that you feel you feel at home in the city now.

Ume Chauhdry

Yeah. Yes. Me too like this. I just enjoy now because I know the places. I know how to go there, and I meet my friends.

And, actually, we were not just, doing our project. We were solving each other problem, listening to, each other the stories, and encourage them to come forward and do things. And you can do it. Like, our tour guide, I said, I don’t want to do How I will speak to 35 people? Then staff or and, my, another friends, who were doing well.

No. You can do it. Do it. You have to do it. You can do it.

So so it was just encouraging each other, and we got, develop new skills in heritage through community engagement, working with industry professional, actually, they were very good to improve our ability to integrate in society and just, and make friends and our stress level. And they look after us, very well, and our travel expensive paid. And if somebody need to pick up children, they make sure they, finished right on time so they can go, and they were very flexible, and they were very helpful. And, they look looked after a lot. And if we had stress and depression and they speak individually, everybody, and if they want to refer to other organization, they did.

So after project, I was sad to leave actually Empower Women, so I decided to stay. So I started to volunteer with them. So I’m assistant IT officer in Empower Women, and now I’m doing the food security documentation as well. And then, I got a chance, like other women to go to city college. So I like this, voluntary training course.

And, now I got chance in, GOMA Library to do the digital poll, voluntary. So looking forward, because they are applying for funding for another heritage project. So I’m looking forward or very keen to do that as well.

Layla Sadr Hashem

Yeah. We get together regularly, and, also, we are working, as volunteers as, Ume stated at the office. In these days, Hasma has some projects to boost well-being and, mental and physical health of the minority women. At the moment in the office, I’m doing research regarding a minority’s physical health as we have planned to boost women’s strength and involve them to do more exercise and be, more active physically.

Ume Chauhdry

Thank you, Layla. As you mentioned, I remember you we were doing before Ramadan the, yoga, classes and therapy, and this is another chance to meet all the team of Thistle and Dandelion project to meet each other and doing some Yeah. Something useful and, mindfulness for it is good for our mindfulness.

Fay Young

What you’re describing is so positive. One of the questions that we like to put to guests is, are there reasons for hope in the dark time that we often feel we’re living in? And what you’re describing seemed to me to give lots of reasons for hope. But what do you feel?

Layla Sadr Hashem

Yeah. For me, I try to find, opportunities to develop new skills and learn something new as I only find meaning, in my life when I do some, positive things, in my community. Even, if it is very small, do something and help someone and make their, life easier. Yeah. This, make me happy.

Also, my my effort to help minority like, progress and, flourish, especially regarding their mental health and physical health. This can, like Mhmm. Make me happy.

Ume Chauhdry

Yes. It’s same like Layla said. Everybody was saying, oh, you find the job of the I said, no. I’m doing the voluntary while, trying to get the job. And this voluntary, actually, in our religion is, ongoing charity to help others.

And, if I know, like, IT, and so I can teach them there, so I feel happy and, relax. Okay? I I have some knowledge, and I’m giving them. And when I hear their story and I empathise with them and that is very good. I feel so much happy and, relax.

Okay. I am going there and doing useful things and, helping other women, especially, they came from Africa or Middle East or all over the place, different countries. And, they they have their own stories and some left husbands and children there and came here. Some left parents, and it was quite sad and stressful for them. So we are living here, so, we’re helping them as much as we can.

So they feel like, they are at home.

Fay Young

That that’s so heartwarming to hear what you have to say. And, unbelievably, we’ve reached nearly reached the end of our conversation. So the the last question is one that we ask everybody, and that is, what is your favorite building in Glasgow?

Ume Chauhdry

My favourite building was, quite interesting because, it was the end of project we visit is a transport museum. I visit before 2, 3 time every year, so with my children. But this time was quite different because our staff member, Vera and Ruby, he was, with us. So we went there, and, they were explaining very nicely. And because we become friend and we did so naughty things, and we went to ship, and we was just ringing the bell.

And somebody said, stop ringing the bell. That was too much. So then we were sitting in the old subway train and was we were discussing about why Edinburgh don’t have the subway. They said they there was a plague in, I think, 18th century, and there was a lots of bodies that buried underground. So they can’t and there’s a mountain area.

They can’t make subway. That’s where maybe Trump. And then, we were talking about ghosts. So and we were so scared, and we just ran away from South Beach. And then, I, it was amazing.

I saw the, Pakistani van and was so decorated, and there was a poetry like we have in, Pakistan in truck and buses and van. They are all decorated, and they have different poetry and different phrases in there. So that was quite interesting. And we explore every object in-depth, And the staff member explained very well. That’s why I I just love this building.

Layla Sadr Hashem

Yeah. To answer this question, I want to admit something. To be honest, when I was teenager and in my twenties, unfortunately, I was not keen to go to museums. I didn’t see any point in looking, at or reflecting on old collections and items in in museums. I always was looking forward.

But when I got old, little by little and, I also when I moved to Glasgow, my views changed. At the beginning, when I travelled to the city center and, the area around, I used to feel the outstanding symmetrical buildings were talking to me, especially when I came to know, that, you know, that some of buildings, in the town, were built during slavery era, by some slave trade merchants. Also to add, that over the years, I came to recognise, more and more the beauty and creativity of historical landmark museum collections. Also, I would say, visited lots of attraction and museum through the Thistle and Dandelions project. I could see now and feel the story behind those historical buildings and museum collections.

It really gave me deep insight, and now, I got more impressed by Glasgow environment, historical landmark, cultural attraction. And, now I think Glasgow maintains nostalgia for the past and also, excitement for the future. Yeah. I got impressed by all styles here, like Gothic, Victorian, Art Nouveau, and art deco style, symmetrical, decorative, trim, stained glass, embedded sculpture. All those design really draw my attention.

But, if I want to pick just one buildings, I would say that a C and symmetry behind it, Necropolis. I always think, how would, the cathedral was built at that time when architects had limited resources and materials, but they, produced the architectural masterpiece and a phenomenon design, I think.

Fay Young

Two very different answers and both so interesting and taking us into both spaces and the context as well. Thank you so much. And thank you both really for a tremendous insight into your own lives, but also your own lives in in Glasgow. And you’ve been very generous in sharing those experiences. And I might just add, when you were talking about thistles and dandelions, as a gardener, I was thinking, well, traditionally thistles and dandelions have both been regarded as weeds.

But with the new interest in creating wilder, more natural gardens, they are both regarded now as great sources of of of, wildlife. You know, they’re they’re rich in in seed and nourishment, which seems to me a a great description of what you’ve been sharing with us today. Thank you both so much.

Ume Chauhdry

Thank you so much. You were so lovely. You gave us chance to explain and tell our tell us our story. Yeah. Exactly.

Layla Sadr Hashem

Thank you so much.

Katharine Neil

Glasgow City Heritage Trust is an independent charity and grant funder that promotes the understanding, appreciation, and conservation of Glasgow’s historic built environment. Do you want to know more? Have a look at our website atglasgowheritage.org.uk and follow us on social media at Glasgow Heritage. This podcast was produced by Inner Ear for Glasgow City Heritage Trust and is sponsored by Tunnock’s.

Niall Murphy

What strikes me about Mackintosh is a lot of the materials going through that whole experience of rebuilding the library and looking at things like that after the fire. It It was like looking at the various materials, and some of them were quite humble, but it’s the artistry with which he puts all of that together. So seeing it in pieces would be quite fascinating because it would be completely different from having that kind of amazing spatial experience, how he brings all these parts together and really is able to define his Absolutely.

Robyne Calvert

And and also because it’s not, like, perfect and mathematical in any way, shape, or form, and that will be something they did discover through trying to figure out what it would take to reconstruct those rooms as well, back in the back with the tea rooms. You know, this was very true of the library as it’s not like these were equally measured planks of board that made up the ceilings and the floors and everything. They were they were made to measure as the project went along.

Niall Murphy

Okay, everyone. Welcome to series 3 of If Glasgow’s Walls Could Talk. And, today, we are talking to Robyne Calvert about Charles Rennie Mackintosh and the Mac. Robyne is the author of The Mac, Charles Rennie Mackintosh and the Glasgow School of Art, and tantalisingly, our conversation is taking place in early March 2024, and Robyne’s book is due for publication in April 2024, so it’s not yet back from the printers. But we do already know it is a labour of love whose appearance may stir many emotions in a city still suffering from the impact of the fire that destroyed the Mac So, Robyne, tell me a little bit about yourself.

Robyne Calvert

I have been living here for, going on a 18 years. I came here to do a master’s degree at the University of Glasgow. I had been, previously doing a master’s in in Oregon, and and I, I decided that I wanted to write about, the the tea rooms because I had discovered, the four in a in a design history class and had never seen them in my life and thought they were very exciting. And so I got lucky enough to be able to move here and do a second master’s in decorative arts and design history at Glasgow and decided to write about, Margaret Macdonald’s gesso panels. And then, I just stayed to do my PhD, which was inspired by how the four dressed.

I was curious about Mackintosh’s floppy bow tie and Margaret Macdonald’s clothes. So I did that. I wrote about how artists dressed, in the Victorian era. And, then because, I guess, I got this little Mackintosh niche, I started out as a lecturer in Architecture Architectural history and Design history at the Glasgow School of Art. And then after, the 2014 fire, I was appointed, the Mackintosh research fellow there, and I I worked on the projects there.

Niall Murphy

Let’s kinda go back to the fires. So, you know, the first of these fires is is almost exactly 10 years ago now. It’s just coming up. The anniversary is gonna be in Yeah. May, which is astonishing to think about because it just seems like the other day it happened.

It’s, you know, 1 of these things, it’s like A Princess Diana or a JFK moment. It’s one of those things. If you know the Mac and, you know, you know that context, it was such a shock. So, you know, that was the first of the fire. And so at that point, you were kind of researching and teaching at the Glasgow School of Art, and you were you know, you’d experienced things like that fabulous library.

And then you became part of this team of expert after after that fire 10 years ago. So advising on the the the restoration work, which, you know, obviously with my, Glasgow City Heritage Trust hat on, we were assisting with some funding for that. So, you know, we were very conscious of what was going on with that that team as well. And, you know, we’re acutely conscious of how painstaking your approach was to the whole thing and how you were all trying to kind of keep this concealed as it were to have this kind of beautiful reveal, and then how thwarted that that was by what happened with the the second fire in June 2018.

Robyne Calvert

Can I come in on a couple of those things?

Niall Murphy

Abs absolutely.

Robyne Calvert

Okay. Just first of all, because because the one thing I’m very conscious of is I do feel in many ways, I was an active participant, but I do feel like I was very much a bystander, and I was not one of the key people who did all the amazing work. And I’m I’m very I wanna be because I’m I’ve had the great privilege to write this book, but, you know, one of the key things about it was making sure that people know that, really, I was writing about other people’s work and voices.

So just to kinda go back to the first fire, I was a I was a lecturer there at the time, and I was at home. I mean, I think we all can do a tell a story about where were you, like you say, when that happened. You remember? And I remember I was sitting at home, and I was, like, you know, texting with people on the ground. And a good friend who was in the comms team at the time, Claire Biddle, so she was like and I have to confess.

The first thing I said was, is the gesso panel okay? Before I knew it was climbing to the library, the fire, and she was she was like, it’s out. I think it was one of the first things the fire services ripped off the wall. So, yeah, it is quite shocking that it was it was 10 years ago. And so, you know, the the but the spirit of right after it happened, you know, everyone in the school was pitching in and going in and recovering, you know, items from the building.

Obviously, there was the student work that was affected. I was in, like, two days afterwards, with the archives and recovery team because I have museum hand object handling experience and background. So I was actually working with archives and collections, literally unpacking every object from the collection to see if it was wet and then setting it to dry out. And I have to say that that, for me, personally, was an extraordinary experience to be able to help, you know, protect the objects in the archive, but to actually just see all the stuff. Literally, you had to unpack everything and make sure because there would you’d have a whole box that was dry, and then you’d open it up and somehow it was wet inside.

And so you had to make sure all the objects anyway. So so there was that kind of thing. And then I did start talking to people about, you know, there’s a huge project here, and and someone’s gonna need to kinda capture what’s happening in the research of it. Not I didn’t think I was personally in any way qualified to, you know, be the person to say, here’s how you fix it. You know, but that that there would be some kind of extraordinary project.

So I I did kind of pitch the idea of there being a research fellow, but there was a lot of internal, you know, decision making that had to happen, and then there had to be a post made. I had to interview for it, the whole thing. So, when I came into that team, I was very much thinking I would just kind of observe and and record in a way, and pitch in where I could. And it was and this is something I say in the book, actually. The first time I got to go to a design team meeting after the team was appointed and Paige Park was appointed, and

Niall Murphy

Mhmm.

Robyne Calvert

I was sitting in the back in the back of the room taking notes what they were doing, and they were looking at the hen run that day and everything and they were looking at these pictures of the hen run, from early days and I’ve never seen these photographs before. They’re from our archives And and they had and it had the gridded roof instead of the pitched roof…

Niall Murphy Yeah. Yeah. So it

Robyne Calvert

was sitting there, like, wondering what the dates of the photograph was because it wasn’t dated. It had no notes or anything. And it was David Page and he turned around, and I didn’t even realize he knew a thing about me. He turned around and he looked at me and he said, what we need is a fashion historian who can date these photographs for us. And I was like, oh.

And I went up and I looked and I’m look and I’m like, I’d say 1914 by the skirt and the this and the that and that. And and that was how he very suddenly, like, welcomed me, I feel, like, into that. And and from that point forward, I would I just kinda I did still kick back, but I knew that if there was some thought that I had or something that I could add to the conversation, it would be welcome. So I was just thinking about when you said about the photographs that you took and other people took. One of the interesting pieces and difficult pieces of this book, in terms of just the project is that, you know, there was gonna be these really beautiful photographs of the finished building

Niall Murphy

Yeah.

Robyne Calvert

And there’s not. And so weirdly

Niall Murphy

You never got that review.

Robyne Calvert

No. And so weirdly, although I I’m really pleased with the book, and I think it will you’ve seen a little bit. I hope you think pretty. But Yes. There’s

Niall Murphy

Yeah. I was reading it, so I should’ve skimmed it, but I started reading it. So and it’s quite emotional.

Robyne Calvert

That that’s nice to hear. Yeah. So but if you look towards the end, the photographs are really quite rubbish in some ways because you’d expect these big, beautiful, you know, Yale production, etcetera. But they’re the tiny little

Niall Murphy

The the Bedford Lemere of

Robyne Calvert

the day. Exactly. And there were there are Bedford I mean, so luckily, the beautiful Bedford Lemere pictures are nice and big. But towards the end, all you get are these, like, quarter page tiny snapshots because that’s literally all that exists. So we we did what we had to do.

And, anyway yeah. I but it is really upsetting when you think about all the work that went into it, all the amazing craft that was lost. And, but I think even more upsetting is the effect that it had on the community and particularly the local community on Garnethill . That was a massive, massive impact.

Niall Murphy

Okay. Before we get further into this, I’d just like to wind back more to, you know, where this started from in terms of your interest in Charles Rennie Mackintosh and, you know, how you found yourself in Glasgow. So so, you know, because everybody’s kind of, experience of Charles Rennie and Mackintosh has a different starting point and, you know, you you develop a relationship with him, Margaret Macdonald as well on the back of all that. So how did that all come about initially? Tell us more about that.

Robyne Calvert

Well, I had, been working in museums for quite a while, and I decided I wanted to go back to graduate school and and get my master’s and all that kind of stuff. And I was deciding whether or not I was suited to the to it. I I went to in in the states, we’ve got community college. Some of you might have seen in the show, community. So so yeah.

So I went to the local community college and I took a design history course because I’d also, started I did some work as a designer in that period and kinda got was getting interested in design history. And, it was just a basic design history course, and and I and in the course, and all the wonderful poster art and, you know, Art Nouveau and everything, said these Scottish artists show up, which I, like I said, I’d never seen before in a in a very stupid way was, like, you know, there’s art in Scotland. Like, you don’t you know, it is that horrific tartan fantasy garbage, which I think, you know, I can say this I can say this as an American, you know, is the perception. That, you know, it’s it’s a vibe. And and that now I know obviously is completely ridiculous and lacking in in the huge the bigger context. So but I was.

I was just absolutely to be honest, I just thought it was beautiful. I mean and, you know, it’s kind of as art historians, you’re, you know, you’re supposed to be critical and that’s not because something’s pretty is not anyway, like, there’s a reason you’re called to something in the first place. There’s something that speaks to you. Yeah. And it was actually the posters was the first thing I ever saw.

Like, the musical review poster and the Jerico poster, was that first slide. And I was like, what is this? And then they showed the tea rooms, and I’m like, what is this? You know? So, yeah.

So I got some fun I decided I wanted to learn more, and I I kind of looked, and there wasn’t, like, loads of stuff published on it. This was early 2000, really. I mean, there’s some great works out there, but and, you know, if you compare it to something like, you know, Picasso or Frida Kahlo, there’s, like, 80,000,000 , bucks. You know? So, yeah, I just decided I wanted to learn more and write about that, and and I chose it as project of my thesis.

And then I got funding to come to Scotland to do the research and, at the same time, realized that that I could come study here and go further. And so that’s kind of that that’s that ended up being what I did, and I got quite lucky and had mentors who are great scholars in the community. And yeah.

Niall Murphy

So what what was it like kind of come come to Glasgow from from the States? What was that experience of kind of seeing seeing both Mackintosh and Margaret Macdonald’s work, you know, in real life?

Robyne Calvert

The first thing I saw because we got in on a flight in the late afternoon, and and I had all these various appointments for the next day. And the first thing I saw was the west elevation of the art school. I took a walk that evening, and my my friend who had been here before walked me kind of around the corner. And he’s like, let’s just go up the hill here. And I was like, alright.

And then all of a sudden, it was there. And, dearly, I still have the photograph I took, which was now on, like, a really hazy like, it’s low resolution weird kinda thing. But, yeah, there it was. And and that was really exciting to see the building from the outside. I I remember, obviously, going to see the gesso panels in the Kelvingrove was fantastic.

But I I’ll say the coolest experience I had, I had gotten in touch with Alison Brown, who is the curator of European Art at Glasgow Museums, as you know, but not not everyone might know that. And at the time, they were doing the projects up in Maryhill where they had all the pieces of the Ingram Street Tea Room laid out and they were cataloging it and measuring it to see what it would take to reconstruct it. She had a grant to do this. And fast forward to now, this is why we’ve got The Oak Room at the V&A Dundee.

That’s one of the results of that years later. But at the time, it was laid out in bits, and she invited me up to Maryhill to literally so I saw Mackintosh in pieces lying on a floor in a warehouse. And in fact, Helen Kendrick, who we both know, who used to work for GCAT, was working on the project at the time there before I ever met Helen. She must have been there that day. So it was amazing actually, but I had a really weird privileged view of, like, Mackintosh and Pieces being one of the first Mackintosh things I ever saw laying on a floor.

Niall Murphy

That must be abs absolutely fascinating. I mean, what strikes me about Mackintosh is, a lot of the materials I mean, this was what was interesting and going through that whole experience of, you know, rebuilding the library and looking at things like that after the fire. It was like looking at the the various materials, and some of them are quite humble. But it’s it’s the it’s the artistry with which he puts all of that together. So seeing it in pieces would be quite fascinating because it would be completely different from having that kind of amazing spatial experience, how he brings all these parts together and really is able to define his piece.

Robyne Calvert

Absolutely. And and also because, and now this is something I know from the work that well, other people did on the back, and I I learned from it. It’s not, like, perfect and mathematical in any way, shape, or form, and that will be something they did discover through trying to figure out what it would take to reconstruct those rooms as well, back in the back with the tea rooms. You know, this was very true of the library as it’s not like these were equally measured planks of board that made up the ceilings and the floors and everything. They were they were made to measure as the project went along.

So, you know, some of them make a lot of sense and are everything, but the working out of the maths of how these things you know, in order to reconstruct it and and especially in the case at least at least with the tearooms, you know, they had dismantled everything in pieces, and I think they were fairly carefully marked and cataloged. But it was still like they had all the pieces of a big puzzle to put back together. Yeah. The library, the pieces were mostly ash.

Niall Murphy

So Yeah. Yeah. How do how on earth do you figure out how? I mean, it’s lucky that that space has been so well documented by, you know, various people, Paul Clark being one of them, you know, in in a whole series of drawings. So in some ways, it’s quite a well recorded room,

Robyne Calvert:

but the however on that though is, if I could just say, the however on that though is is that Paul did the yeah. Paul’s drawings were very, very important. There’s a little note to them in the book and, and loves people. But what we found really quickly is there’s a million or more photographs of the room and 0 photographs of, like, the corner of the room. The the dark areas that notice you have the same Yep.

Photograph a million times, but the real key areas that you needed to know, there’s no details of them at

Niall Murphy

all missing.

Robyne Calvert

Yeah. Totally missing.

Niall Murphy

Yes. Yeah. And it’s funny as well people’s interpretation of the space over time because I always just thought that things like the stair was part of the library. Because all the times that I was at Mac, that stair was there. So I just assumed that, well, that was part of Mackintosh’s design, then discovered that actually, that was completely wrong.

It had only been installed in the 1950s . It’s like, okay. That’s a revelation. And the same with the windows.

Robyne Calvert

Yeah. The windows had changed.

Niall Murphy

But they weren’t. Yeah. Yeah. The windows had changed.

Robyne Calvert

Debates that happened around, you know, what to reinstate, and, you know, do we put those stairs back? And the and and I was quite pleased the decision was no because it wasn’t used in the same way. Yes. And,

Niall Murphy

Yes. Yeah.

Robyne Calvert

Absolutely. Even going back to, it being a library that was to be used again, which was the intention, a kind of special collection space, you could still use the outside stairwell to access the mezzanine as as was intended in the first place. The the debate I became really interested in in a super nerdy way was about the librarian’s box that was in the corner of the room, the office. Mhmm. Because I’m not gonna name names.

But when I say architects, I don’t mean Paige Park people on that team. I mean, some of our advisory panel people. We’re really arguing very strongly for that box not to be there. And they fully believe that Mackintosh hated that box and didn’t want it there because it didn’t show up in the Bedford Lemere photographs. But the thing is he did design that box.

It it wasn’t in the original drawings, but he did design it at the request of the librarian who said, well, we need an office. And so at first, he put it kind of in the center of the room, and then they said there’s not enough light then, and they moved it to the corner. So there was this case being made, well, Mackintosh didn’t want it there, so we shouldn’t put it back. But then I was on the team of which a lot of design team were like, well, but but he built it. Though it was there when it it opened, but it’s not in the Bedford Lemere photographs.

And then because of this is one of the small research bits I had done, I’m like, those photographs were taken before the room was finished because if you look at them at the furniture package, the the shelf on the magazine rack is not there. The chairs are there, but the tables aren’t there. And we have one of the things about the GSA is and the reason all of this can be done is they’re pack rats, and we had all the bills from the delivery of the furniture package and I could literally see October the desk and chairs were delivered. October the desk was delivered. In November, the magazine rack and the tables were delivered.

That means Bedford Lemere came between these two dates to take the photograph. Oh, and the library box was delivered later also. So it was literally the evidence was there that they were just taken before it was installed. Not that with Mackintosh was like, take it now. I hate that box.

So

Niall Murphy

I’ve been forced to do it against my will.

Robyne Calvert:

Yes. I do. So and that’s a really challenging thing too because there’s so many people who wanted Mackintosh wouldn’t have wanted that. And I’m like, where’s your Ouija board? You know?

Yes. Yeah. Absolutely. These fun debates around that. And I think it’s hard for architects as well clearly because, you know, there’s stuff that he wanted to do that he couldn’t achieve because of the technology.

The hen runs the classic example. Like, he you know, that gridded roof failed. That’s why it became a pitched roof. But now we can build it so it won’t fail. You know?

And, and so yeah. It is I think you’re right. He did make things. He made things beautiful where they had to be apparent. What if he could have hidden them in some way to have a cleaner line or something?

Maybe, but that’s not what he did.

Niall Murphy

Exactly. It’s not what he actually did. So, yeah, I know. I thought I was I thought I was interesting in philosophical terms, and I thought actually might be a little bit too purist, but it was but he’s he always seems to be a pragmatist in how he designs stuff, so that was interesting to me. Anyway, just to go back to you and the book.

So it’s getting published by Yale, and it’s due for a release in April. So the book’s gonna address all these controversies arising from The Second Fire. Tell us how the book came about.

Robyne Calvert

Like I said, I I think we were you know, as a researcher, I always thought, well, my job is going to be to make sure that we capture what happens here. And also, just to say, it was also to encourage other people to engage with it too. It wasn’t just about me and my doing this. It was trying to get other people, whether it was internally at GSA or external friends and partners to to engage with, what was going on. So it it did just come about, I think, in the way I don’t say the way the way these things do of I had planned to do this and and got in conversation with a couple publishers through various connections.

And, Yale was very keen. And, you know, speaking as an academic and art historian, Yale’s the dream. That is, you know, one of the great publishers of art and architecture, particularly British art and architecture. So, yeah, they they I mean, I had to still write the proposal and do all the things and have it reviewed and go through all the proper channels, and it’s all, you know, all the things. So so I just like I said, I was I was, you know, capturing things and and making lots of notes.

And it it was a very difficult project, to say the least. And I I don’t mean that in any kind of, you know but obviously, you know, you’re writing something to be a celebration and then it it’s it’s destroyed. And Yes. Yeah. Yale have been absolutely phenomenal in their support and understanding.

Like, they were just like, right. What do you wanna do? And I’m like, well

Niall Murphy

Right. Okay.

Robyne Calvert

I think there’s still a story here to be told, but I just don’t know what it is at this moment. They’re like, right. Okay. Well, come back to us. Like, you know, obviously, take some space.

Come back to us, etcetera. And I was very keen that it didn’t become well, at first, I was you know, we were all very emotionally affected by the second fire. And I was like, this is not going to be a eulogy because we are going to rebuild. You know? And the thing is, I had a I had a not tote not unique perspective, but a particular perspective because I’ve been worked so closely with the project.

I knew a 100% it could be rebuilt from from go. Like, I knew that we knew we knew enough to do it, and particularly, the team that had worked on it knew that building better than anyone ever has. And it was just, could we do it? Could you do it financially? Or and, also, immediately, was was it even gonna be anything left?

I mean, watching it rage. Yeah. We it Yeah. Just you just knew it was gonna be completely gutted. So was it going to be Yeah.

So destroyed that the only reasonable thing to do would be to level it? That was the worry. Mhmm. Mhmm.

Niall Murphy

I didn’t realize until I was about reading the introduction to the book, that he’d actually been there witnessing the fire, which was horrendous. I mean, I got I got woken up in, like, 4 o’clock in the morning

Robyne Calvert

Yeah.

Niall Murphy

And, you know, kind of shown an image from the BBC. So you’re not gonna believe there’s been other fire. And I was like, no. No. No.

That must be that must

Robyne Calvert:

You know, Niall, I wasn’t. I I wasn’t down there, actually. I I was awake when it it had happened, and I was being sent pictures immediately. And and at first, I didn’t think it was real.

I was like, nah. That’s a joke. Someone’s photoshopped that. Like and then it was like, no look. And I was and then, like I said in the beginning, rather silly it was rather silly.

I ran to Twitter, and then it was Sam Heughan from Outlander who was, like, Mac on fire. That’s the first tweet I saw, which was, like, what is happening right now? I didn’t go I could have gone down. In hindsight, I kinda wish I had. And that day was graduation day, and I just got home actually.

And I wasn’t home long. And I wish I’d gone down because I know now that other people did and they were on the roof of the Blythswood building watching it. And I I wish I had been down there with them because of the kinda solidarity. I didn’t go though because I thought I’d be in the way, honestly. I was like, I’m not a person who is needed there now in a crisis.

Like, the people who are needed in the crisis are there. They’re on their way. They’re go because the person who messaged me the picture was like, we need to call someone. I’m like, they’re on their way. Like, there’s no if you’re seeing this now, like, they’re already on their way.

And all I would be doing my view this is just me personally. All I would be doing down there is being in the way and being, like, participating in the grief or whatever, and that’s not necessary. Like, I felt like it was really important that I stayed away, quite frankly, and let people get on with what they needed to get on with in this crisis. I didn’t sleep much, and I was down there at about 6:30 in the morning, you know, and I met, my PhD students down there, Rachel, who you know very well, Rachel Purce and and Carolyn Alexander, we all made a we arranged to meet at the the Costa on the corner, and it was, of course, all chaos down there. And very quickly, we ended up finding people for the project.

And I was getting texts. So I knew people were down there because people were texting me from the rooftop. So I was kind of wasn’t there, but I was there in a weird way. So I didn’t actually see it, burn live, and I’m that part, I am kinda glad about. I

Niall Murphy

Yeah. It would have been horrendously emotional for you. I mean, just I think

Robyne Calvert

it was. And it it what I’ve said about it and I don’t this sounds really dramatic. And like you said, I know I’ve written, like, an emotional thing, but that night, I I just remember I the feeling I felt was despair. And that’s not an emotion that I that’s not a word I use lately. It’s not a thing that I like to call out.

I’m, you know, I’m a outgoing passionate kind of person, but I’m not I don’t think a huge drama queen. But despair what utter despair was how I felt that night. And and, you know, and if you compare it to the first fire, I was heartbroken, And I did go down on the first fire. I was standing on the corner watching the flames come out of the library. And then we all went to the state bar, got drunk, and had a really good night, actually, in the end because everybody was talking about how much they loved the building.

It was, like, awake. And, like, the whole community was there, and it was still standing. You could still go in. We were like, oh, no. What are we and then it became quite good.

This was completely different. And, of course, nobody was down there.

Niall Murphy

Yeah. It really was.

Robyne Calvert

It was just it was it was a disaster. It was an absolute disaster. And, Yeah.

Niall Murphy

And real real anger on the back of it as well. Anger. That’s my recollection.

Robyne Calvert

Real much anger. It was a completely different Yeah.

Niall Murphy

How how on earth could that happen again?

Robyne Calvert

And I was getting at that point, I was getting calls from the media first thing the next morning from people who I just talked to about the project before and I was like, I’m sorry. I can’t say anything. Not because and I I do wanna say this and I was never at any point while I worked for the art school for 6 years or at any point in the couple years since I haven’t worked there, I was never once told I couldn’t talk about something. Just I’m I’m very happy to say this on the record because I think there’s a lot of misperceptions. I have I was never ever told I couldn’t say a thing.

Some of that might be trust in me having common sense. There are certain things I wouldn’t say just simply because I’d like you know, I don’t know all the information so why would I talk about that? So when when people called me the next morning and were like, can you talk about this? My answer was no primarily because I didn’t know anything. Like, why would I talk to you about this when I have no information?

As almost as a scholar, I can’t do something like that. That’s just not ethical.

Niall Murphy

Yeah. Complete complete thorough.

Robyne Calvert

I think there was trust in us from an ethical consideration. So this idea is about, like, listen. I’m fully I get why people were angry and and, actually, not to say I support it, but, like, it’s reasonable to me. I I like that anger is so reasonable to me and the ongoing anger is so reasonable to me. But it was quite challenging to kinda be on the inside and then see how things were being reported.

I was able to take a pause, and then, I was, you know, first adamant it wasn’t gonna be a eulogy. And then I was like, okay. Well but I have to deal with this. And for me, personally, the really big helpful thing that happened was the pandemic. Because at that point, I mean, I was like, you know what?

It’s a building. There was a I hit a point where I was like, it’s a building. It’s not thousands of people dying from all over the world. You know? It it puts things into perspective.

Niall Murphy

Yeah. It does put things

Robyne Calvert

into perspective. Even put things into perspective. You know? Like

Niall Murphy

Oh, yeah. Gren Grenfell. I had I had yeah. Yeah. Grenfell, made you know, obviously, I was upset with Glasgow School of Art, but Grenfell made me really angry as an architect.

I mean Because I knew exactly how all those interfaces were meant to work, and it was a fundamental failing. And it was on so many different professions that that that happened, and everyone was like, nope. What is worth? And Yeah. Totally unacceptable.

Robyne Calvert

Completely. So, you know, you have these things that happen in the world that make you go, okay. At the end of the day, like, it’s yeah. Of course. And I still obviously love this building.

It’s a building. And, and it gave me this the time, and that gave me a bit of perspective to kind of, at some point and I know other people from the team came to this conclusion probably sooner than I did, was to be able to say it’s been destroyed. I for a long time, I couldn’t say it’s been destroyed. I was like, even even after I’d been inside, actually, which I went I did go inside finally right after it was right before lockdown, and, the central area had been cleared of debris while they were still doing the fire investigation. I got in.

And even at that, I’m like, it’s not destroyed. I can still see it. You know? So, like and at some point, I can’t. I’m like, no.

It’s destroyed. A Ruin. And I and so it changed the tone of the way I wrote about it. And so it is written about as as a ruin, but as a ruin that can be rebuilt. And I think part of what I hope, if there’s some kind of contribution that this book has, I hope.

And this is actually something I wrote, I think, even before it burned it was destroyed fully. The thing about buildings is we tend to see buildings as these fixed structures, as these monuments, really, particularly, you know, great buildings as things that will outlive us, that will, you know, last as symbols of our immortality. You know? Because they’re buildings. They’re strong.

They’re stable. They’re built of stone and brick, and they’re, you know, heavy, and they’re big. And

Niall Murphy

Yes. Yeah.

Robyne Calvert

But, actually, buildings change more than anything. Buildings change through our use, our habitation. They adapt. They fail and have to be fixed. We have to take care of them.

They are absolutely the opposite of fixed monuments. They change. We re reinvent them. We sometimes badly. We we fill a, you know, a we change a 4 story edifice into a 7 floor office space inside.

You know? And and I think so part of what I come, like, from the academic side, at the end of the day, if you made me pick one of those hats, I say I’m a design historian. And the thing about working in design history and material culture is you understand that design is iterative and it changes. And we don’t think a thing about recopying a Mackintosh chair. We still call it a Mackintosh chair if we make a copy of it and sit in it or whatever.

Yeah. But if we may were to make a copy of a building, suddenly it’s not a Mackintosh building anymore. And I think we need

Niall Murphy

Yes. Yeah. I don’t buy that.

Robyne Calvert

So I think we have to think about buildings more as as design objects, really. They are design objects, and they change Yeah. And they change with us. And if we can

Niall Murphy

Yep. I agree.

Robyne Calvert

I thought you might. So I think if No.

Niall Murphy

I think all of all of all the kind of I mean, it’s an it’s an inevitability about life. You know? You have to live, and you have to make things work for you. So so it happens. And, anyway, the act of building is always an act of translation because you as an architect, are you drawing out your design either now in, you know, using BIM or CAD, which is what I worked on Or, you know, prior to that, I was at the cusp of the change between, you know, draw drawing boards and, computer aided design.

And so it’s always you are putting your thoughts down on paper, which is one act of translation, and then you’re handing that to a bunch of people on a site to interpret. And it’s how well you can get them to interpret something. That’s a second act of translation too. So as long as you’ve got those blueprints, you can always rebuild something. You know?

And it’s gonna be yet another generation’s interpretation of, you know, somebody’s ideas.

Robyne Calvert

Yeah.

Niall Murphy

So it’s not I I don’t think it’s the the typical knee jerk architectural response is, oh, it would be a pastiche. It wouldn’t be real. But it wouldn’t be because it would it would be a faithful recreation. And I hate the word pastiche anyway.

Robyne Calvert

You know, I kind of I I know what you mean, but it what’s funny about it is buildings are pastiches by their very nature. That’s literally exact almost what you just said about the translation. You know what I mean? And those additions and impressions.

Niall Murphy

It is. It’s never your original idea. It’s always somebody’s interpretation, and you have to learn as an architect that you have to let go at some point, and you have to let a crafts person or a builder on-site interpret what your ideas is. And you can, you know, hopefully, if you’re in a position do that, say, okay. Yeah.

That’s what I was thinking, or Mhmm. Maybe it’s not, but budget won’t let me, you know, won’t let me redo it. I’ll just have to accept it. And, you know, that that happens, and that’s all that part of part, you know, part of the act of building. You can’t be that pure.

Robyne Calvert

And I think that’s what Mackintosh did exactly. I mean, there’s bits about the design of the pendants in the library that I wonder about. That was one of the other small areas of that I got to contribute kind of some research thoughts to.

Niall Murphy

That’s that that was really fascinating, that, as a wee exercise.

Robyne Calvert

Yeah. Yeah. And also just me as a, you know, a researcher to maybe I should sketch this and try to figure it out. And so I did. You know?

And Yeah. We we had a minute that minute where we thought there’s not photographs of every single one of the pendants, and people kept coming to me asking me questions about look. They well so there’s a little bit of a thing. They were they came to me asking questions about what they meant because they felt like there was a code in them to crack, and that’s how how they could figure out what the pattern would have been. If they knew the code to crack, they can figure out the patterns.

And I and then I Right. Being me, would be like, let me explain to you how symbolist art and design works. Like like, the meaning is for you to interpret, ultimately kind of is one of the underpinning messages of my book, like, without doing the spoiler of just, like, this dialogue that it gives you, you know, as as the user. Mhmm. But, but that said, I was like, right.

Okay. Well, let me sit and see if I can figure out what the patterns are. And I had because I realized that the questions were coming from different groups of people, and each of them was giving me a different set of data, really, photographs and things like that to work with.

Niall Murphy

Right.

Robyne Calvert

So I popped open my sketchbook, and I started sketching them. And, actually, it didn’t take me long to realize that, in fact, while there wasn’t a clear pattern in how they were made, there was an actual design that was repeated throughout that I had never noticed before until I drew it, which was the there were just 3 different patterns he used to create those pendants. Mhmm. Mhmm. So but how they came about is what we don’t know, and that’s interesting.

And I think that’s what you’re talking about. Like, did he draw out the 20 different hanging pendants around the library, mezzanine and say, right. These are the patterns I want you to make. Or did he sit with the joiner and go, right. Here’s 3 different patterns.

Let’s arrange them in different arrangements and make 20 of these.

Niall Murphy

Yeah.

Robyne Calvert

And I’ll leave you to Yeah. You know, or he

Niall Murphy

And interpret as best you can.

Robyne Calvert

I mean, probably, I would think it he did have some more say in what that what those looked like as a designer. He would have maybe had a bit more control, but we don’t know the extent to which he worked. And he did work, I think No. And I have to give a shout out here just because the Mackintosh Architecture Project at the University of Glasgow, which has catalogued all of the drawings and everything, is an amazing project. I I always think that if they could track IPs, mine has to be the top hit on that website.

Niall Murphy

I love going back into it. It’s a fantastic resource. It’s really interesting because you can find out about various craftspeople while you’re at it. It’s not just Mackintosh. It’s the whole everybody who is involved.

Robyne Calvert

That’s exactly why I was mentioning it because, one of the things I did do, and it’s only a little bit in the book because there wasn’t, like, a load, but there but I started you can search who all the craftspeople are in it, like you say, and see the different projects they worked on. So I was able to see that the Mhmm. People who did the roof of the Mac also did the roof of Queen’s Cross Church. And the people who did some glass here did the glass at the Willow. And so you could see the people that they were going to repeatedly.

Now it was like, now it was two different joiners in the two different phases of the building that there’s lots of good reasons why that could be. But, yeah, that there were people that they worked with regularly. So So so at that point, you’re building relationship with your craftspeople. So Yes. You know, what level of trust there was between and and clearly for a space like the library, one, you will, I would imagine, retain some degree of control and and and say in something like that.

But, two you’re gonna wanna work with the people you trust the most to get it right.

Niall Murphy

Yeah. Yes.

Robyne Calvert

One of the reasons why the the chapter that’s kind of about the building itself and and its kinda trip around the building, I called a plain building because that is what they asked for, a plain building. Yes. And in some ways, like you say, what they got in comparison to a lot of the rest of Glasgow, as we know, is not they’re not plain buildings at all. But No. This point is really, really interesting to me, and, like, I think we’ve probably talked about this before.

There’s a project there much like Mackintosh architecture because, see, all these people who were working there were also doing the glass on, like, Clyde Bank or any salmon building Yep. Or, like, it’s because it looks really different, you don’t think of it. But they’re the same makers. They’re the same people Yeah. Working on the buildings.

And it would be so interesting to pick that apart a bit more and, you know, see who these people are. I wish I wish we could know more, and you are, you know, an amazing expert on Yeah. All the buildings that I’m not.

Niall Murphy

There’s still tons I don’t know and I’m kind of trying to figure out at times, and, there was a really good, and I don’t know what happened to it, project that was looking at Wylie and Lochead’s production, which I thought would also be an interesting part of that too because, obviously, similar craftsmen must have been involved in all of that, because, you know, you’re creating these fantastic interiors all a number of of of which were Glasgow style interiors, which end up getting scattered all over the UK all from this one department store because that was was what you could do. So tracking those down, I know that there is a team who have been looking at that, but I have no idea where they’ve gotten to. And that would be really interesting to kinda bring into that kind of project as well.

Robyne Calvert

No. It definitely would. We need to do this.

Niall Murphy

Well, it’s a it’s yeah. It’s one of these things. It’s like, yeah. It is a labour of love, which is obviously, you know, what what what your book is all about. It’s this biography of a much loved one.

Robyne Calvert

I mean, it was for me, definitely. It was a very well, one of the things about it which, you know, I confessed to a little bit of, I don’t know if it’s nervousness but, you know, you’re trained as a historian to be or at least you used to be trained. Luckily, I think we’re moving away from this a bit, to have to be, you know, critical and unbiased and you know?

Niall Murphy

Mhmm. Mhmm.

Robyne Calvert

And I couldn’t. I could not.

Niall Murphy

I could

Robyne Calvert

not do that. I couldn’t, remove myself from the emotion. And then I decided I shouldn’t because that’s what people feel. That’s why this building that’s why everybody’s angry. There’s a reason.

I mean, you know, the people who are angry Because we loved

Niall Murphy

it. Yeah.

Robyne Calvert

Because you love it. And people all over love it. And it it is a building that engendered in people, and its users, its visitors, an emotional reaction. And, so that’s point one. The other thing too is it’s a bit of a lie that anybody’s a biased and unbiased, writer anyway.

Even our driest, strictest architectural historians of the past had a view and an agenda and a bias.

Niall Murphy

Of of course. Of course. Absolutely. When once you’re involved in it, you can’t divorce yourself from that. You’re never going to be a completely neutral observer.

You just can’t do it.

Robyne Calvert

And I felt it was really important to try to I mean, you know, there’s only so much you can do, and there’s so much not that I think I haven’t been able to do reasonably. But I really wanted to, you know, well, one, update the building update the story of the building. And not just update it with fires

and things, but update it from drawing on the knowledge we learned about it from the project and and thoughts that people had about it and discoveries that they made. And some some are my own observations about things. Some of them are, are definitely other people’s observations and thoughts about them.

So I thought that, one, was the important thing to do. Two, tell these stories about you know, let other people’s voices come through who’ve been users in the building. And some of them come through as direct quotes. I interviewed a lot of people. I got a lot of oral histories from people.

Niall Murphy

Mhmm.

Robyne Calvert

Mhmm. Some people who, in fact, are no longer with us, like Mark Baines from, you know, our wonderful Mark Baines champion for Thompson. I sat and recorded Mark in the Art club for a couple hours talking about it. Right. Right.

But I don’t see why you couldn’t do what you’ve talked about about making it an it should be an exemplar on how you can reconstruct heritage, but also how you can do it in a sustainable and boy, I hate the term future proof because there’s no such thing. But a way in which, like you say, we need to think about climate and sustainability and all that. And, I mean, it sounds like that’s what they were trying to do. That was part of the brief. It’s a really big ask.

Niall Murphy

Yes. Yeah. But if you think about, you know, how the Art school came about to begin with, about how it’s all part of this kind of reform movement in the UK in order to up our skills base so that we could compete with, you know, rival nations at that time. But just to up the skills base generally, and the you know, what you were getting taught in the art school at that time, it seems to me to be an incredibly good fit with what the Art school should pick up black.

Robyne Calvert

I mean, there’s a they there’s, you know, a huge section of the school that’s all it’s innovation is, you know, there, and and the title, it’s been there for quite a while. So, like, where you know, that should be part of of what’s happening.

Niall Murphy

Okay. Well, the other thing I wanted to talk about was Mackintosh and Margaret Macdonald, and the kind of, you know, the the relationship between the two of them, and the fact that Mackintosh is very unusual in that period in giving credit to, Margaret Macdonald’s influence, and her work too, you know, that that, what what is his his great phrase

Robyne Calvert

You are half if not three quarters in all my architectural work.

Niall Murphy

That’s it. Yep. Uh-huh. Exactly. So, you know, the the kind of the that that clear obvious love that they have for each other and how that impacts in their work.

Do you want to talk about that? I mean, particularly, say, in relation to the Willow Tea Rooms where that’s much more Yes.

Robyne Calvert

Obviously. See, I I do think that she, was incredibly important to his work. And I know some of the criticism around giving her credit was that she’s not an architect. Right? She so how could she have done these things?

But I do think that line is very interesting, and I always like to say the context for that was, you know, a letter he wrote to her, when he was in France. She’s in London. She’s about to be interviewed for an architecture critic, or architectural magazine about his work. And he’s kinda reassuring her that she knows because she’s in it. Right?

So I do think the Willow Tea Room’s a really good example of where you can see her collaborative efforts. You know? And I I think the the when I teach this and the way I talk about it is to, and I literally just did this this morning, have my under students understand the idea around a Gesamtkunstwerk that when you’re making something that is a total work of art, that means that all the elements that you’re contributing to it are working in concert to create a complete work. Mhmm. So if Margaret this is where going way back to the beginning of my gesso panel research.

If Margaret is making these key, objects for spaces that really are kind of keys to unlock narrative themes of the rooms, like at the Willow, the the Willow wood gesso panel, then Yes. Does she not have some kind of, you know, collaborative position within that? But the biggest problem is we just don’t know the answer. So it’s kind of you know, it’s easy to go one way and say, well, Mackintosh is the architect, so he was in charge of everything. He came up with the theme.

He basically just told her to make a willowood panel on the theme of willowood just like he told the joiners to make these silver chairs, just like he told the glassmakers to make the bauble, whatever. Like, you can just do he’s the director. They’re all the the the orchestra members. Or you can say, actually, it’s a bit more complicated because the conversation we were having earlier about the trust that happens between your maker and the conversations that you have and how things actually come to fruition and look, that’s a bit more complicated. You know?

And that’s very true. So then if you add a layer of this is your intimate creative partner, we have no idea. You know, no idea. So I think it’s I’ve always found it an interesting problem to which there’s no real answer, but I definitely don’t think the answer is she had nothing to do with it.

Niall Murphy

Yeah. I come completely with you on that one, because I do I think that that, you know, when you when you look at his work kinda before and then after when she starts, you know, when they start having a relationship and that builds over time, I think that she does drive them on to the next level.

Robyne Calvert

I think they drive each other on, actually, for sure. Yeah. I think, you know, there’s ideas that I think come from, the immortals, the group of women that she’s working with. I think the magazines are really interesting, that that that sort of collective work there they they make together that’s full of poems and stories and fairy tales. I definitely think there’s a lot there.

And and and, yeah, I do think that the work that that she makes for his spaces is is amongst her best as well. But it’s it’s just so hard to pick apart. I mean, obviously, I’m a huge, like, Margaret. But I also wanna do it with balance. You know what I like, I feel like there’s a responsibility to do it with balance because it is true.

She didn’t know how to design rooms. She wasn’t an architect. But ideas are complicated things. And I you know, as somebody myself who’s worked creatively with with a partner, you know, it’s it’s such a joy to be able to do that, to work Mhmm. To build something creative with somebody that you love is

Niall Murphy

Yeah. And, yeah, to that that degree of trust. Yes.

Robyne Calvert

And and I and I I don’t like it when we sort of, I guess, marginalise that as a creative act.

Niall Murphy

Completely agree. It’s like, you know, what happens with Robert Venturi and Denise Gover Great example. Still angers me. But, you know, like, how how could you be excluded from the Pritzker offense?

Robyne Calvert

Not on. Exactly. I mean, and the whole business long

Niall Murphy

of when this happens. Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. Okay. Right.

Moving on to our final question then, which is the one that we ask everyone, and it’s the loaded question. What is your favorite building in Glasgow, Mackintosh or not, and what would it tell you if it’s walls could talk? No.

Robyne Calvert

Stay out of the attic.

Niall Murphy

I love it when it puts people on the spot.

Robyne Calvert

In Glasgow.

Niall Murphy

Yes. Yeah.

Robyne Calvert

I mean, it does have to be the Mack, doesn’t it? It it just does. Like, I’m I don’t want it to be. I really want to pick something else. Mhmm.

But that’s just stupid. That would be just a a big lie. And I love there’s so many buildings to choose from. I mean, I I love I really hope somebody’s staying in the lion chambers here and talking about it. It’s but

Niall Murphy

Great. Great. Great building. I’m I mostly keep landing on Central Station just because I like the big space. So I don’t a lot

Robyne Calvert

to say.

Niall Murphy

I mean,

Robyne Calvert

there’s, you know, there’s the Willow, but, I mean, there’s also I mean, I love the Scott bill. I mean, there are it does go on and on. And, oh my gosh. Like

Niall Murphy

I know. I know. I know. See, that’s I could change every 5 weeks. Yeah.

Robyne Calvert

There’s so many.

Niall Murphy

There’s so many that I think I really like to do.

Robyne Calvert

So many. Okay. So I’ll say the . I will say The Mack. And if it could

Niall Murphy

Yeah. And for me, it was a toss-up between the west elevation of the The Mack and Central Station, just because that is kind of great

Robyne Calvert

social space. Saying. Okay. Well, do you know what? I will

Niall Murphy

West elevation of The Mack

Robyne Calvert

Do you know what? That’s so funny. I’m gonna go I’m gonna go team east elevation. Yeah. I I absolutely adore the east elevation. It’s so eclectic. It’s got all those amazing little windows.

Niall Murphy

It is. It is. Yeah. Bits of Bosia.

Robyne Calvert

And Yep. And so

Niall Murphy

He’s a magpie.

Robyne Calvert

Magpie. Okay. So here, let me answer your question properly. It is the Mack and what it would say is ‘I’ll be back.’ No don’t. I can’t. III guess I guess it would just be, it is I think it is an ‘I’m still here’, actually, ‘I’m still here’.

Niall Murphy

Yes. Yeah.

Robyne Calvert

Absolutely. Kind of, I guess, the mess spoiler the message at the end of what I write because I there’s a photo that I took. There’s a place I’m giving away the end of the book. There’s a place where you can stand on the stairwell going to the sub basement and and it’s like you’re still in the building. It’s still there.

It’s still there. It’s and I Yeah. I imagine it like a phantom, actually, if I’m honest.

Niall Murphy

Yeah. Yeah. A ghost building. Yeah.

Robyne Calvert

Yes. So that’s I’ll go with it. Why not?

Niall Murphy

That’s a lovely moment. Thank you, Robyne. That was very very much appreciated. It’s been a real pleasure talking to you.

Robyne Calvert

It’s been delightful talking to you. We’ve got projects to do.

Niall Murphy

We do, indeed.

Katharine Neil

Glasgow City Heritage Trust is an independent charity and grant funder that promotes the understanding, appreciation, and conservation of Glasgow’s historic built environment. Do you want to know more? Have a look at our website atglasgowheritage.org.uk and follow us on social media at Glasgow Heritage. This podcast was produced by Inner Ear for Glasgow City Heritage Trust and is sponsored by Tunnock’s.

Professor David Archibald

Our history is an unfinished history. It’s a messy history. It smells of the inside of a recording studio. It smells of black vinyl. It smells of screen printing.

We make this history together as much as we hope to make a future together. So please welcome to the stage the Tenementals.

Niall Murphy

Hello, everyone, and welcome to If Glasgow’s Walls Could Talk. I’m Niall Murphy.

Fay Young

And I’m Fay Young.

Niall Murphy

So for today’s episode of the podcast, we’re gonna ask the question, can a rock band make history? Not pop history. We’re talking history with a capital H, liberated from books, history told, and made in song. So today’s guest is going to take myself and Fay on a rousingly radical route through the radical history of her radical city. So we usually start by asking guests to tell us a bit about themselves and how they came to be doing what they are doing. So professor David Archibald disarmingly takes a different approach. So the professor of political cinemas at Glasgow University is a founding member and front man of the Tenementals, and he wants to start with a band that is setting out to make history.

So over to you, David.

Professor David Archibald

Well, the Tenementals is what I would call a wild research project. It’s wild because it needs to run to the logic of a band rather than run to the logic of an academic research project, which has its own you know, has to operate within its own kind of logics and regulatory frameworks. So the Tenementals, the main thing that the tenementals are involved in just now is trying to work out whether a band or a a group of musicians could tell a history of a city. And if they could tell the history of a city, what would it sound like? What would it look like? And what would it feel like?

So they’re interested in constructing what I would call a transmedia history of a city, So the history that we would create and that we’re in the process of creating is a history in song, but it’s a history also in perhaps the way that we may write about the song of the songs or the way that we might write about ourselves. Or, in fact, this podcast, I would I would suggest, is a part of that history. The the way that we create artworks which reflect the work that we are doing, artworks which, you know, we might use to promote our work, covers for singles and so on, And those artworks are often in conversation with artworks from previous radical movements, whether it be in this country or elsewhere. And and, also, just the the band’s, ephemera, you know, and what we the things that we might say about ourselves on social media.

And we create an audiovisual archive of our work. At some point, we might make a film about the Tenementals. So all of these things together, we hope that we are creating some kind of very messy transmedia history of a city. Now people might argue, and some historians might look at popular song and and recognise that, you know, some versions of popular culture might be places in which history might be produced. Most academic, or perhaps an understanding of history might be that it’s what historians make when they go to work.

And when they go to work, they produce products or outputs, which are primarily, you know, essays between 6, 8000 words or monographs, singular, books that are, you know, shaped between 60, 80, 000 words. And now they might look at, other forms of popular history. They might look at, you know, music or songs about events and and and accept that perhaps that could be a history too. But I think we wanna flip that around and say, can the historians make music? Can the academics make a history which would be fundamentally different in form to the form that is the, the dominant one.

And and that’s quite that’s not just a that’s quite a fundamental question about you know, from an academic with my super academic head on, that’s a question about the ontology of epistemology, which means, in in shorthand, what does knowledge look like? You know, what what does what does knowledge production look like? Yes. Why is it that history has a certain shape? And why is it in certain cultures that history may have a certain shape in a certain period, and in other cultures, it may be different?

The the canonical great book of the Haitian Revolution by C.L.R James, the black Jacobeans, started its life not as a history book, but as a play, as a drama. And it was staged in in in the it was staged in the West End, in the West End of London. Right.

But if we look at academic history and and, you know, in in the West, it tends to have followed the scientific model, dom that that where where writing dominates. And other forms of knowledge production, other forms of making history have been, have been rubbed out. You know, it’s what some academics might call epistemicide. Different ways of knowing are privileged over other way ways of of of knowing. And I mean, another example is, Lynton Quaysay Johnson.

When I was a a youngster, I listened to the music of Linton Kwesi Johnson. And in the mid eighties, he actually made an album called Making History. And he talks about how as a as a as a poet and as a as a as a singer, he was writing the history of his community. So we’re interested in in in looking at popular forms and and forms of history production, which might be from the groups minoritised or oppressed groups or oppressed ways of making popular culture, working class culture, and then saying, but can we flip that around and put that with an academic setting? And then I suppose what we’re interested in saying then, if we do that, what would be won and what would be lost?

You know, I read books. I read 60,000 words academic essays. There’s considerable value in them. We’re not jettisoning existing forms of history production, but we’re interested in in exploring, if we bring something else to the table, what would we be bringing to the table? And I suppose, fundamentally, what we’re asking there is a question which is, what can art do?

What can art do to create forms of knowledge and forms of understanding? So the Tenemental’s history of the city of Glasgow, it’s not about reaching audiences. It’s not about, so that we can engage with people that don’t read books. It’s That may that may happen, and that would be good if it happened. But that’s not the primary question.

The primary question is to explore, actually what history is and what art can do Mhmm. In the making of history. Mhmm.

Niall Murphy

Mhmm. That’s really fascinating. I suppose think about it, it’s like the fact that you’re doing this in song is quite interesting too in a way of being able to convey ideas and then making sure they’re lodged in people’s memory. You know, thinking about back over kind of, you know, anybody’s life, you can remember things like, you know, here in the other day, a human league song. And, suddenly suddenly being back in the 1980s and remembering exactly where I was and what was going on at that time, and, you know, the whole message of that song kind of releases all of these other memories and associations about something, I think is a really interesting it’s a it’s a really interesting way of conveying something.

Fay Young

Yes. And and the song itself is more easily remembered than words in a book.

Professor David Archibald

Yes. Uh-huh. Yes. So that’s the songs so we wrote a song about Fossil Grove. We think maybe the first song about Fossil Grove.

And I just got I just remember getting taken to Fossil Grove when I was a a kid and being totally, you know, blown away by the concept of Mhmm. You know, these kinda these trees, you know, the monumentalised trees

Fay Young

Yes.

Professor David Archibald

And trying to get my head around concepts of, you know, fundamentally questions about deep time. Yeah. So an entirely different way of thinking about you know, history is often thought about just in terms of the things that men men and women do. But if we think about history in relation to the processes of time and the and the non-human so we’ve got a little simple song, which is really just about a child being can been having their mind expanded by an an an engagement with, you know, concepts of time Yeah. In in Fossil Grove and and White Inch Park.

So in that sense, what that song does, it ties together the auto with the theoretical a little bit by kinda engaging with questions about time and how does and how does time operate and work and how may a child understand it. So you’ve got a song like Fossil Grove, or then we’ve written a song called Universal Alienation just to jump ship a little bit. So Universal Alienation riffs off Jimmy Reid’s very famous, speech to alienation speech in 1972 when he was elected as the director of the University of Glasgow. I mean, on the back of it is the role that he played in the occupation of the the shipyards, and the Clyde in, you know, in 1971 when the workers were involved in taking over the yards and running the yards in an attempt to stave off their closure and, you know, relatively successful in in in its time. And Reid became a world famous figure.

He was on Parkinson. And,

Niall Murphy

Yeah. Fantastic.

Professor David Archibald

And so he became a famous, trade union figure, rightly so. And he was, a fantastic orator, self taught. Fantastic orator. And he makes a magnificent speech in the in the in the Bute halls, the University of Glasgow, about alienation and about the rat race and about why people should not just, you know, get drawn into the kinda, you know, chasing chasing every little thing that’s thrown in in ahead of you. The compromises that you might make before you know before you know it.

As Reid says, you’re a fully paid up member of the Rat race. And Yeah. I mean, I’ve worked in the I’ve been worked in the university for a long time, and I think that when Reid made that speech, perhaps people wouldn’t have thought that Reid was talking about working conditions inside the university, not just the University of Glasgow, but higher education generally, which I think for many people might be regarded as a much, you know, much more relaxed, working environment. But in the reality, in the last few decades then, you know, all the issues about alienation that Reid was talking about are certainly applicable in, in in higher education generally. So we’ve updated that song called the universal alienation.

But, also, there’s a line or 2 in it about Jimmy Reid and the miner’s strike because when I was a kid, I worked in John Brown’s. And I was at you know, I was a big trade union activist, and I was collecting the money for the miners. And I used to go around, and I was in charge. I was in what was called a union called AUW Task, which was the white collar workers’ section of the engineering union. And I had raised the idea of the levy, so I was gonna get charged for collecting it.

And so every every steward had to collect a pound a week from their group, and then they would give it to me. And then I had to go and persuade all the people that didn’t want to pay it, on a Monday morning that they had to give me the pound.

Fay Young

How old were you?

Professor David Archibald

I was a wee boy. I mean, I was, like, 20 I was 90 in 84/85, yeah, I was 20. You know, I was 20, but I was I had all the energy that maybe Reid would have had when he when he was 20. You know? And, the tournament was I’m not interested in simplistic histories.

You know? We’re interested in the the messy past. If the if the history itself that we make is gonna be quite messy, then we’re also interested in the complexities of the past. My views haven’t changed, but my capacity for arguing has been tempered a little bit, you know, and a more greater capacity to see the other the other side of things.

Yeah. But but my fundamental views actually haven’t changed.

Fay Young

So you you listen to what others are saying as as well as formulating your own response. Do you listen first? And does it change your mind ever?

Professor David Archibald

Yes. I mean, yes. One of the great things about being a teacher is about how much you learn by reading other people’s writing Mhmm. And, and and and and analysing how they are how they make an argument and looking for the evidence that they put in their argument. And and often it’s often the case that young, opinionated people write really strong arguments with sometimes little evidence.

So by spending a lot of time looking at writing, that’s been a very good thing for me. And when I was doing my PhD, I did a PhD on the Spanish Civil War in cinema, and I I published a book on that afterwards. And but when I was doing my PhD, I I had this great, great job where I went to schools and specific postcodes in Glasgow that were identified as, you know, low in low, intake areas for the universities.

 

Professor David Archibald

I did this, bridging course for the 5th and 6th years, they might be where they are and how they might get to university. And the university had just introduced that course that that whole program, and I was in the first year of it. So they spent a lot of time training us, about working with young people and study. And and I learned so much doing that, and I learned much.

Niall Murphy

That must be an absolute fascinating.

Professor David Archibald

Absolutely. To go back to the to they were kids. You know, students university students aren’t kids all. But, of course, but but school students. So I learned so much.

I remember, you know, some of the things that you take, but in the universities and about possibilities and about speaking to kids from working class areas about class in a in a different way. And it’s about whether you talk to them about how class delimits what they the position that they’re in, which it absolutely does.

Niall Murphy

Totally

Professor David Archibald

Same time, giving them the power to talk about what they can do. And that and I learned a lot about that. I learned a lot about that from working with the from working with the kids. I spent a fair bit of time in Castlemilk.

Fay Young

Just going to ask if you had helped people over the bridge, you know, if if some of the kids that you were speaking to, if they went on into higher education.

Professor David Archibald

Oh, many many of them would, but, I mean, this is 1999. I started doing that, so they some of them will be coming up for retirement. But, no, that was that that was a while ago. But, sure, definitely. Definitely.

We had a great affinity with some children in in in Castlemilk, but I don’t I’ve I’ve got no idea what they’re what they’re doing now. And I and I I think like a lot, you know, like a lot of academics from working class backgrounds, then I don’t know if it’s a responsibility, but they certainly spend a lot of time in working class areas. And, I mean, local history is a very powerful educational force, you know, to because it makes a very specific connection. Mhmm. You know, it makes a connection with with you and the people that walked on the ground that you walked in Mhmm.

You know, 10 years ago or a 1000 years ago. And it really helps, I think, for people to conceptualize time

Fay Young

Yes.

Professor David Archibald

And the and the and the passing of generations and and and where they may stand in relation to that and that people are gonna come after them and so on. So there’s nothing parochial or narrow minded about local history.

Fay Young

No. And as as you say, song is such a powerful way of keeping it alive because the way cities are now, streets get demolished. Well, certainly buildings get demolished, but sometimes whole streets get dug up. So locating yourself in the place isn’t always the most useful thing to do, but the song can keep those echoes vibrating or reverberating. Yeah.

I’d love to hear more about the songwriting. And when we spoke earlier David you gave a really lovely description which reminds me of a lot of you know sort of Simon and Garfunkel writing process. But perhaps it we would need to meet your band first before that story makes a bit more sense, your co-writer, for example?

Professor David Archibald

So the band is, myself and Simon. Simon Whittle is the guitarist. Simon also does all the design work. He’s a he designs all their artwork, and and and, you know, I’m biased, but the the work he does is really fantastic. And Simon’s a punk.

He’s, he’s Carlisle’s greatest punk, punk rocker. But he lives in Ibrox now, and he’s, well, he’s been in Glasgow for a long time. And, and he’s and he’s a great guitarist, and he’s got the capacity to write these really beautiful little kind of riffs and guitar moments. And so so me and Simon write the songs in the main meeting, and these songs start with an idea. You know, they start with an idea.

So they don’t they tend not to start with a piece of music, but they start with an idea. So like, you know, Fossil Grove, you know, we’ve got that idea, or or Passion Flowers Lament is, you know, the the the song about the statue on the, on the backs of the Clyde.

The Tenementals (clip of Passion Flowers Lament)

I stand here eternal, fists clenched to the sky as reaching for futures, not pasts of the night. My soul is scarred by memories of hearts broken and flowers crushed in the darkened shadows of Castell de Fells. Where secret but the silence of these betrayals eases the burden you must bear.

Professor David Archibald

So they they usually start with an idea, or they always start with an idea, and and, usually, I overwrite some lyrics, and I’ve got some lyrics with too usually far too many and probably not in very good shape. And I and I I don’t really know what the song sounds like. I maybe have a sense of whether it’s soft or you know, but not really. And then Simon comes over.

He comes over to my house. We have we drink a bottle of wine, and we and, like, in half an hour, or or, well, within the with with the time the wine’s drunk, then we got something, which we think is brilliant. And then we usually go to the Arlington bar and drink another couple of pints and go home. And then the next morning, the song is not as good as we thought it was, but it’s enough for us to build on.

Fay Young

Right.

Professor David Archibald

And it usually takes us three if we had a budget for each song, it would be three bottles of wine. But maybe we would take three maybe we would take about three goes at creating the song before we would then have it. And in the meantime, what we would do is I would I would then kind of rearrange the shape, the structure, the lyrics. Simon would develop the music a little bit more, and then we would come back together. And so that’s that’s generally the the way we would write the song.

And then we would take it into the the studio. And then everybody builds on builds to create the version of this the the initial song that will be that will be released or that that will be that will be created. And that and that’s a really beautiful process. We recorded a song, just a one off song with Monica Queen, who’s a very celebrated, voice, you know, really a really unique, absolutely unique singer. And, and we brought we brought out a song called Te Recuerdo Amanda, which is by the Chilean singer and poet, Victor Jara.

And and we did that because we were doing a gig in Saint Luke’s, and we were doing it the day before the 50th anniversary of the the day when Victor Jara’s body was found after he had been arrested in the aftermath of the coup in Chile in 1973 when a right wing military dictatorship overthrew a democratically elected government took him to this, football stadium, broke his fingers, shot him dead, and dumped his body in the street. And, you know, it was what I loved about that when we recorded that, it’s been played a few times on the radio, but it was played in Govan Community Radio, Sunny Govan Radio.

And we wrote a little bit of a press release, and the, the person who was I think it was Daffy’s name. I don’t know him, but he he was talking about the song. And he was you know, maybe called some of the stuff from the press release that we had put out, but he’d he’d done his own work as well, and he talked about about that. And what I loved about that is that that song was gone out in Spanish because we sang it we recorded it, and Monica sang it in Spanish.

And that song went out in in kind of working class areas in in in the city, a song which was entirely new because Yeah. I think if you if you’re gonna record a song, a a cover of a song, that’s you know, it’s nice if you can do something new with it, but, actually, to to record that song and to put it in kinda Scottish working class areas, a song about what Daffy said is they killed him. I’m paraphrasing, but he said they killed them because of the power of his music. And I thought, no. That’s really lovely.

It’s true. Absolutely. Absolutely spot on. So I was really it made it made my heart swell to hear local radio DJs playing, you know, songs that the Tenementals are are are bringing out in Spanish. You know, there’s not many Spanish tracks on Scottish radio these days, understandably.

But we thought there was an element of solidarity attached to to doing it, and that and Monica sang it so beautifully. I mean, it was just amazing when she when she sang it at at Saint Luke’s.

Niall Murphy

I saw that performance. It was wonderful.

Professor David Archibald

I mean, it was stunning.

Niall Murphy

Mhmm. It really was. It was a great performance.

Fay Young

And, of course, you’ve got the German song as well, haven’t you?

Niall Murphy

Yeah. The Peat Bog Soldiers.

Professor David Archibald

Yes. I mean, this is a way in which the the band operates not as an academic project. Because an an academic project would arrive, and it would have probably an agenda, a problem to solve, maybe a research question, and it would have a maybe a time frame in which to do that. Whereas the Tenementals have, you know, a small foot in the university and then a big foot in the music scene in the city, And that means that we operate on the logics, not of an academic research project, but on the logics of a band so that we have to go not where the academics want to go, but we have to go where the band needs to go. Yeah.

So if a band’s playing a gig, we then it follows not with the academic side, but it follows what the band needs and what the gig needs. When we were doing a a striker’s benefit gig in January, early February 2023 in the Admiral downstairs in the admiral, Every time you do a gig, you might be trying to do another song just to to to do something different. And on that night, we came up with the idea of doing a song called peat bog soldiers, which, emerged from a conversation that I had with a filmmaker friend of mine filmmaker academic friend of mine called Holger Mohaupt, who lives in North Berwick and teaches in Liverpool. And I’ve been doing some work with a colleague in Catalonia about the Spanish civil war and and sights of memory. And we’d filmed a few things, and we were looking to put some music or some old music that we could get, copyright clearance to use.

And I had been I was speaking to Holger about this German song that was about the Spanish Civil War. And he says, well, you know, die moorsoldaten Black Soldiers. And I I said, I don’t really know. He said, that was a big song in Germany. He said, he calls me Dave.

He’s like, Dave, it’s the big song when you’re a teenager on the on the demos. It’s the big song. And I didn’t really know it. And then I read a little bit about it, and it had been sung. It had been recorded by, you know, Pete Seeger and recorded by Paul Robson and Mhmm.

Many covers of it, protest covers of it, but mostly quite a while back, you know, in terms of it being well known. So I thought, well, let’s let’s do that. And then I had heard Holger’s daughter, Lily, who’s, you know, Scottish but has been speaking German for for for a fair bit. So German is, is pretty good. And, I had heard her singing on some, some of Holger’s films, and I knew she had a beautiful voice.

She was, you know, maybe 18 at the time. So she sang it. Did she just pitch up on the night? Or maybe we had one rehearsal the night before. And it was just beautiful.

And because it was first performed on the 27th August, 1933, in Borghamur concentration camp by for A camp for left wing political prisoners. It’s not overtly political. Well, it it completely is, but the words are, you know, the words it’s about mask. The protest is about, you know, is is not in your face. So the reason that it became a big song in the Spanish Civil War is because a lot of the German members of the communist party and the left leftist generally, because fascism because Hitler had come to power in 1933, Spanish Civil War breaks out in 1936.

The German Communist Party actually instructed all their members with military service to experience to go and fight in Spain. So there was a lot of Germans in Spain. And they brought with them this great song, Die Moorsoldaten which is to a kind of to a marching beat. So it became a big song in the Spanish Civil War. So the versions of it are a little bit beaty and, you know, meaty and militaristic, and then mostly sung by men.

So to put a young woman, a young female teenager, in the in the lead of that, it was, you know again, it’s just trying to make a new song in some ways. And that was just so lovely. She sang it so lovely, and then we recorded 2 versions of it. There’s a 6 length a 6 verse version, which is, you know, very, very rarely performed. But we just recorded the that in in the entirety.

And then we we did a kinda new translation of a a three verse, and then we sang one verse in German, one in English, one in German, one in English, one in German, one in English, one in German, one in English. Again, so to try and make a kinda new song, and, and she just sings that so beautifully. And then and then you and then you just put it out there, and you you hope some you hope It’s hard it’s hard making music. There’s so many it’s amazing because there’s there’s so much music out there. That’s good that there’s a lot of music being made, but it’s actually hard getting the attention, getting people’s ears.

So you just have to put your put your music out there and then hope that it finds the right ears, I suppose. And what happened with that song is just out of the blue, I got an email from the the former archivists who deal with the the concentration camps in Borgenborough in that area. And and they I mean, they just said some really beautiful words. And they said also that they wanted to archive the song, the materials related to the song in an archive. They’ve got a special archive just about that song, Daimler sold that and Peat Bog soldiers.

So we were we had some conversations with them, and we and we’ve we’ve we’ve sent some materials there already. We’ve sent, you know, we’ve sent, a CD and some other materials, and we’ve got we’re sending them some more materials related to that, some a DVD and so so that was just so incredibly moving. Mhmm. I mean, that was, you know, that that was moving. You hope that I don’t know.

If you’re a band and you bring out a track, then you hope that, you know, someone might write some nice words about it, you know, because that helps spread the word. Mhmm. So so to get some to get some words from to get some kind words from the archivists in the concentration camp was just extraordinary.

Niall Murphy

It is. It’s com completely fascinating. By complete coincidence, I was reading Hans Follada’s diary, kind of that period. Just we can’t complete coincidence I hadn’t come across this article then. And, yeah, it’s the the night of the burning down of the Reichstag .

Fay Young

Yeah.

Niall Murphy

And they know, you know, what’s gonna come. And it’s just that whole period is just so fascinating and horrific. And, yeah, to hear that in that song.

Professor David Archibald:

Yes. Uh-huh. It’s hard to imagine these things.

You know, I think maybe maybe what art can do is that maybe art can, I think, begin to help us understand the things that just the the written word cannot, actually? So, maybe Art can help us understand emotions.

Niall Murphy

Oh, definitely. Absolutely. In, Cabaret when the the the future belongs to me, that song. And in the film, when you see them and they they’re dawning a realisation, this is what’s happening, and everybody joins in eventually. It’s this terrifying moment.

Professor David Archibald

Yes. Exactly. So so art, song, painting, you know, they they can do they can create another form of, knowledge, experience, about the past.

Fay Young

I mean, in in the article that Niall referred to that was published in The Conversation, you talk about looking for hope in the work that you’re doing in in the the radical histories, but also talking about the future. And that’s what the songs are doing, drawing on, recreating the radical history for now, for our understanding now. And does it help us, especially in The Passion Flowers Lament, where you talk about the fascist boots marching again and we have to learn from what happened before to be alert to what could happen again, what is already happening in some places. So it’s sorry to repeat, you know, to just to get a sense of whether you feel there is hope, in in or are you finding hope as as you work on this radical route?

Professor David Archibald

I think that, there’s a fantastic phrase that was developed in the in the aftermath of the Paris Commune about, you know, the defeat of workers, movements, and someone coined the phrase the great federation of sorrows Mhmm. Which is beautiful. The great federation of sorrows. But one of the things that we’re interested in is the capacity of art and culture to be points of opposition and to point towards possibilities even in moments when it seems absolutely impossible.

Fay Young

Mhmm. Mhmm.

Professor David Archibald

Peat Bogs soldiers is a great example of, you know, workers coming together group of workers coming together to sing in the face of a cataclysmic thing that’s coming in their direction, which they probably can’t even begin to comprehend Yeah. The thing that’s happening to them. Art shows you that in times like that, they they create possibilities when other things are forced down. Mhmm. So that’s one thing.

The second thing, I think, is that there are moments when it appears that there cannot be any hope because the thing that you’re facing is is so, is so overwhelming. And, I mean, the new director at the University of Glasgow made you know, it’s controversial that he’s been elected. 80% of the students have voted for Abu-Sittah . And he made a really interesting point in his speech last week, and he said, I’m paraphrasing, but that’s not a quote. But he says, never would one have imagined that in 1987, when this the University of Glasgow Students elected Winnie Mandela to be the rector of the university.

No 1 could have envisaged that in a generation further down the line, multiracial or a non apartheid South Africa would charge Israel with genocide at the at the International Court of Justice. There’s a lot in there. You know? And the the point I’m pulling out from that is that I remember that period of of apartheid in the 1980s. You know, I got arrested in Benneton’s or Gail Street amongst other things for occupying it.

But at that at that at that point, apartheid seemed impregnable. You know, in in the mid 1980s , it’s it it it did not seem that, you know, a kind of emancipate black emancipation or movement against the white state was was possible. We would go to see all these films which finished with I can’t remember the what what film. We’d finished with a list of all the the black men killed in prison, how they slipped on a bar of soap or, you know, all these pathetic excuses. And if you were black and you were in a township in South Africa in the mid 1980s , it must have felt, you know, where on earth is the hope here?

But, actually and and that’s when I I was in a little choir called the Moses Mayekiso choir. Moses Mayekiso was a he was the leader of the, metal workers union, and someone I knew had come back from South Africa with a tape of trade union workers’ songs, and we sang them probably very badly. But we used to sing them we used to sing them in the streets. So people have always used art and culture as vehicles for maintaining some kind of possibility, if art if maybe art can do that, can maintain some kind of possibility, and also conjure a new world. I an idea of a new world when the beyond the idea that the current world seems the only one that’s there.

It’s impossible to see anything else other than the overwhelming size of your oppression. And I think that you know, I was a socialist. I was a young socialist when I was a teenager. I’m I’m an old socialist now. But at the the the fundamental ideas that I’ve that I’ve that people told me when I was young, They said to me when I was younger, well, you’ll grow out of that.

You know, you’ll you’ll grow up, and you’ll realize how the world works, etcetera, etcetera. And I haven’t actually, I haven’t, and, actually, everything that I’ve and and when I was young, I thought it was I thought it would be better if socialism was the way that the world was organized. I thought it would be better. It would be fairer. But now, actually, I think that, and I think this is a reasonable, by an analysis of the evidence, conclusion to draw, that if capitalism continues, it’s quite difficult, I think, to see how the end of the planet or a planet which is not massively impacted negatively colossally by climate change the in the newspaper.

So for me and, of course, I’m in, like, a minority, a very, very small minority of academics who would stand up and say, I’m a socialist, and argue for socialist ideas. And in the academy, a lot of people might say things like, well, we may have to imagine worlds where we may live together differently. We may breathe together differently. I mean or they may talk about post capitalist futures. I’m I’m not afraid to name the tenemental’s object of desire, which is, you know, a socialist world Mhmm.

And, and to campaign for that. Now I’m a teacher. I’m at the university. It’s not my job in the university to propagandize for a certain set of values, And I don’t do that, apart from anyone else that’s extremely conservative, to think that you can just, you know, communicate your own ideas to other people and that they’ll gonna be 1 we won over 2 of them. Your job as a teacher in the university is to to create as much capacity for critical thinking.

Yeah. Yes. So, actually, the first thing, if your student if your students reject what you said but reject it with a, you know, a good argument, then that’s that’s an a. You know, that’s that’s that’s totally fine. So it’s not about my role in the university in terms of socialism, but and and I think that perhaps at the moment when it seems least likely you know, there’s not that many there’s not a big massive movement for socialist change in Britain at the minute, to say the least.

But I think what is least likely, then that’s actually the moment when you have to say that it’s necessary. Yeah. And if you restrict yourself to what is possible, then if we look at all these things that have happened in the past, they would never have taken place. They would never have taken place. It would never have seemed possible to overthrow Ceaușescu in Romania or the apartheid state for some people in in in in the eighties.

Change always looks impossible until it happens. And then it looks as if, of course of course, it had to happen. Of course, it had to happen. So we are not afraid to say that we’re in in favor of absolute, fundamental change in favor of working people.

Niall Murphy

Fascinating point. This is, yeah, a bit of a sidetrack. I was on an Erasmus architectural summer school, which was in the USSR just before the coup. That that was fascinating because you had no idea that this kind of really major moment in history was about to happen. And then in hindsight but when you piece it all together and it’s like makes complete sense.

And it was just like we we were so kind of oblivious to things like all the tanks in the street. And you were like, well, that must be what the USSR always does. But it wasn’t because they were all gathering for the coup. And, you know, you had no idea. But it was it was fascinating to think that was all going on at the same time.

Professor David Archibald

No. I think these things are they’re always connected, history and hope. You know, they’re connected. And Mhmm. Is it Seamus Heaney who uses the saying, you know, when when hope and history rhyme?

And I think, you know, I’m sort of interested in that line. You know? And I do think I’m sort of old fashioned in a certain sense. It’s not that history predicts the future or, you know, or that we could learn the lessons from history, and then that means we won’t make the make the mistakes again. I don’t think that that’s the the case.

But I think that we can be inspired by moments of possibility in the past. And I think that the wealthy know that because they they always, always repress the memories of absolute revolutionary changes. When Mhmm. So the Paris Commune 1871, a big attempt to erase that the the the whole memory of that in French in French education and French popular culture. So these moments of actual when workers actually took control of things, The Spanish revolution, 1937 Mhmm.

1936, rather. You know, Spanish Civil War gets a bit messy, and that’s some of the stuff that we talk about and ends in, of course, terrible defeat for the for the for the workers and the peasants. And, you know, Franco’s probably not a fascist, but certainly aligns with the fascists and stays in power until 1975. That’s a major, major a major, major defeat. To return to that question a phrase I said earlier on, the left always tends to talk about the great federation of sorrows.

Why did we lose? Who killed him? He betrayed him. We are interested in that, but we’re interested in finding moments of possibility and blasting them into the future. These moments when things did happen, when things when things changed, even if momentarily, they create another they they create another option. If it happened once, it can happen again. Yeah. And that’s why revolutionary histories are often are often repressed by the powers that be, the powers that be that are above them.

So it’s those moments of possibility. Whether that be international revolution, these grand things, or even that small thing like the poll tax. You know, the poll tax. Yeah. As I was on a I was on a radio, they they they I felt quite old.

They got a lot of the oldies back to talk

Fay Young

Absolutely.

Professor David Archibald

The first poll tax demonstration that took place in 1989.

Niall Murphy

I remember all of that. I was there I remember going on them. That was fascinating.

Professor David Archibald

They were getting it. And if you didn’t, they were saying, you know, what was it like? And it was quite it was quite weird. I felt I felt very old. But these these moments of of of radical change when people won Yeah.

And they changed history when it seemed like that could not happen. Mhmm. If I understand that history, it helps us do that as well. And that’s that can often be a local thing, you know, teaching, you know, students or learning more about the Chilean revolution or the Paris Commune, the Spanish revolution, how people resisted, Hitler and the Nazis. Great.

That’s good. That’s fantastic. The history of the UCS working, when the when the shipyard workers occupied the yards and helped to stave off the closures, the history of the poll tax campaign, how local communities came together to stop sheriff officers coming into communities to to remove pieces of furniture from people’s houses and to conduct what are, at best, Victorian, Victorian practices. And people stopped that. People stopped that.

Fay Young

And the interesting thing was it wasn’t just it wasn’t first class. It was across a broad community. You had so many different kinds of people working together, learning from each other actually. I remember going to supper parties where, you know, property owning people with, people being evicted from, you know, very different kinds of properties coming together.

Professor David Archibald

Yes. Uh-huh.

Fay Young

And it’s such an essential fundamental thing, security in your own home. That has to be everybody’s right.

Niall Murphy

Yes. Uh-huh. Yes. Yeah. Very very much.

It’s very similar to the rent strike and Mary Barbour and all of that and how that, you know, spread from government all the way across the UK. And that that how terrified the government were of it at that time. Very similar.

Professor David Archibald

What that’s a great example of is this, I think there are these episodes which seem to be historical, and then they get blasted into the present. Yeah. When history and struggle rhymes in a certain sense, and you think, well, what would be the lessons of the 1915 rent strikes? You know, that’s like that’s gone. That’s the last thing that’s something that happened ages ago.

And yet that was a key thing that people talked about during the poll tax campaign. And then about 2 or 3 years ago, just when we were coming out of the lockdown, I got an email from an activist in in, in America who knew about the rent strikes who knew about the red strikes in Glasgow, but what he wanted to know is what the poll tax activists learned from the red strikes activists so that the new generation of rent strikes activists in the United States learned about what they could do. So that’s kind of continuation of struggle, a kind of conversation, a dialogue through time, and then these little moments of of success, of struggle, and how they are kinda passed on, and sometimes in an interrupted way, not in a kinda a kinda continuous way, but how one episode sort of gets taken out and Mhmm. Thrust, you know, thrust forward.

Niall Murphy

It’s really fascinating about how you can work that kind of thread, you know, this great radical history that Glasgow has, and you can work it into your songs. You know, it’s it’s just it’s it yeah. Find that really interesting. Mhmm. So what about the critics?

And what do you think they say about your your stance and how the Tenementals kind of work? And how would you respond to that?

Professor David Archibald

Art creates conversations. It’s the starting point for another way of talking, I think. So, you know, we live in a world dominated by, you know, a corporate media which has specific interests. What art does is it can create a different conversation about something else entirely. And what a band can do is just it can just sidestep the existing conversation, and it can say, this is a song that talks about this.

That’s one of the great things that Art can do. And so we’re interested in in having conversations. You know, we’ve had very favorable press, actually. I mean, there’s been a whole series of articles about the tournamentals and the and the Herald, which has been amazing. It’s been they’ve been very interested in in what we’ve, what we’ve been doing.

I suppose we’ve been engaged with as a concept, you know, primarily as a concept.

Fay Young

Mhmm.

Professor David Archibald

We brought out two singles, and, you know, people don’t really review singles. You know, people would tend unless you look famous, but you’re a big band. But people will review an album. You know? So we’ll get we’ll get some album reviews, and that and then and then and that’ll be amazing.

That’ll be amazing in the sense that, you know, Malcolm McLaren says something late about the Pistols, you know, the trick is the the the Sex Pistols are the concept. You know? Don’t the trick is not to let anybody hear the music, you know, before the before they they brought the they brought the music out. So I don’t care. Maybe some did not.

But, but we, you you know, we’ve had quite a lot. We get quite we’ve had quite a lot of press, and, but we’ve not had a lot of press in the music press. You know? So we’ve actually been we’ve been we’ve been written about as an idea and as a news story, and and and, of course, that’s amazing. Well, there’s been some video plays, but and there’s been some blog in which they which they wrote about.

But we expect that when the album comes out, then that we’ll be written about as a band, which is, of course, if you want to operate as on the logics of a band, then you then you then have to go, you know, Archibald’s lyrics are banal, You know, Ronan Breslin’s keyboard playing as as whatever. You know, you then have to and but that that’s it. That’s good. You know, I’ve I’ve I’ve written a lot of arts arts criticism. So it’d be amazing to wake up read a review of a Tenemental album.

That would that would make my year, probably. So we look forward to that. The songs have to be good enough to carry the concept of can a can a band tell a transmedia history of a city? And I feel very fortunate to have worked together with, you know, such talented people.

Fay Young

Do you think it could influence, conventional history making, the way historians tackle?

Professor David Archibald

I mean, a historian has a very specific skill set, you know. And and in terms of construct and historical outputs, certainly, the conventional history is historian has a their skill set is about writing, what I would maybe call the classic realist text. You know, it’s got a a linear essay, beginning, a middle, and an end, and an argument with footnotes. You know, Dovit, who I was working with, I’ve I haven’t heard him, but, apparently, a very good violinist. We might we might we might work together on an album project.

I don’t know. But I think to explore other forms of history, production poses a fundamental question about what history is, about what historiography is, what is the shape of history of course, that’s I I repeat, but Dauvit Broun is also professor, that Dauvit Broun is also interested in that question of, actually, what is history? What does it what does it feel like? I think the the more people doing that, then then the better, you know, then then the better because I think if you’ve got a greater understanding of the form of what you’re doing, then you’ve, you know, you’ve got a capacity to critique of of of self critique.

Niall Murphy

Okay. This is a a loaded question that we ask everybody who comes on the podcast this. And always very interested to hear what your opinion is on something. So it is, what’s your favourite building in Glasgow, and what would it say if its walls could talk?

Professor David Archibald

If its walls could talk. Oh, well. The I have a long answer and a short answer.

Niall Murphy

Go on

Professor David Archibald

My long ans my long answer would be that the great thing about the city is space, which allows the buildings to be seen. That’s what I love about Glasgow, the the parks, and the buildings that might sit in the parks and the but the walkways. I’ll I walk a lot. I do a lot of thinking and walking.

It’s a methodology, actually, walk walking to and not to think, but just to walk. But, eventually, lot an inordinate amount of time in Glasgow Film Theatre. I mean, I’ve spent a lot of time there as a school student

So I went there for the first time to see Polanski’s Macbeth, nudey Macbeth, as we all called it at the time. I went as a as a Labour movement activist to some of the the May Day screenings that the GFT had. They had films like mate one, John Sale’s film in the in the mid 1980s . I went there as a student all the time when I was a I was a film student, a PhD student. I went there when I was a teacher to teach the the classes in the in the education room.

I’ve introduced scores and scores of films there, and I’ve just did so many amazing viewing experiences there. My tip for audiences is there’s a layout quirk in the seating arrangements, which is that the fourth row in GFT1 has got a little bit more leg room than any other than any other than any So you reckon that one? I recommend that. Yeah. So that’s, that’s my favourite view, viewing position.

But, no, I think that that cinema has got a special place in my heart and this and the city’s heart because it’s a noncommercial cinema, but it it would be it would be the GFT. And if the GFT’s walls could talk, then they would have stories from every country in the world, from every of all the thousands upon thousands upon thousands of films that have been screened there. So that would be a that would be a multicultural, multilingual, conversation about cinema and art and what it can do.

Niall Murphy

Oh, fantastic. Very very good choice. That’s a good choice. Nobody’s nobody’s liked that one before.

Professor David Archibald

Oh, good. No.

Niall Murphy

You’re you’re a first.

Fay Young

Amazing. Yeah. Oh, that was that was terrific.

Niall Murphy

Yeah. Thank you very much, David. That was very very much appreciated. A really really enjoyable conversation.

Fay Young

And to play us out, here are the Tenementals with the Owl of Minerva from David’s Professorial Lecture, which was held at Webster’s Theatre on May Day earlier this year.

Tenementals: She comes to settle on a red wooden roof. She ponders. What will rise from these broken banks of utopia? New future, new presence, or new pasts. And still the river flows.

Professor David Archibald

Thank you, We are the Tenementals . Good night! Okay.

Katharine Neil

Glasgow City Heritage Trust is an independent charity and grant funder that promotes the understanding, appreciation, and conservation of Glasgow’s historic built environment. Do you want to know more? Have a look at our website at glasgowheritage.co.uk and follow us on social media at Glasgow Heritage. This podcast was produced by Inner Ear for Glasgow City Heritage Trust and is sponsored by Tunnocks.